Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[rioted]

Mainly because they planned a defence for being boarded days before it happened. Also because I believe that a natural reaction to being shot at when unarmed is to capitulate, not to fight with sticks.

I've done lots of NVDA training. But from people I've talked to, nothing prepares you for being caught in a battle zone. The whole point of the stun grenades, flashes and smoke is to disorientate and confuse. How do you suggest that be prepared for except by doing it? Are states likely to let their citizens use those weapons to simulate attack? I bet the military does.

 

[Pickman's model]

Mainly because they planned a defence for being boarded days before it happened, and if they thought they were going to die they wouldn't have been on the ship. Also because I believe that a sensible reaction to being shot at when unarmed is to capitulate, not to fight with sticks.

you have 'the slave mentality'

 

[ViolentPanda]

I agree. Furthermore if the soldiers are possibly under orders to "take no shit", don't give them any.

So, yet again, lie down and whimper, just in case one of them gives you a Chinese burn.

All the more reason to curl up in a corner somewhere and hide if you're unarmed.

Great, so you can be shot while lying down, rather than shot standing up.

I don't accept that all of the protestors believed that they would be killed if they didn't resist.

Panicking people don't have time to "believe". they tend to just act, but if it makes you feel more comfortable to project steely-eyed determination onto the aid workers, that's fine.

It was lawfully inappropriate and fucking stupid given that they faced guns and had sticks.

It would only be inappropriate if (and it's a very big "if") the aid workers and the crew of the ships had assurances that no harm at all would come to them. No such assurances were issued.

 

[tangentlama]

That all you've got?

I'll change it for your sake.

I don't accept that the protestors involved in the resistance on the ship were all in fear for their lives.

You are muddying the waters. In all your conjecture and 'if I were them I would not have resisted', you fail to consider several points about your flawed perspective.

1) You would never have volunteered for the flotilla.

2) You are very likely never to have even stood up for any group of oppressed people, and you're certainly not doing that now.

3) You cannot know what went through the minds of those on board, being bombarded by stun grenades, tear gas and bullets. You cannot know because you don't think like these internationals who are determined to break a decade (more like 40 years) of illegal military blockade and damaging economic sanctions against the Palestinian people.

4) You cannot therefore know whether the protestors on deck were in fear of their lives, nor if lives had already been affected by the preliminary attack using stun grenades, tear gas and bullets.

5)You cannot know what courage it must take to try to wrestle guns from people firing bullets at your friends.

6) You can never know how it must feel to suffer lies from those who killed your friends claiming falsely that the two guns you wrested from murderous military intent on killing or maiming indiscriminately your friends were guns which had been smuggled on board from the outset with the intent to harm Israelis.

7) You cannot know whether lives would still have been lost if those on deck had not resisted.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Measured against the possibility of that resistance being successful. You bellend.

If a possibility of resisting is that all the soldiers fuck off and send you on your way then great, go for it. But if the only possibilty of resisting is a bunch of dead comrades. Don't.

Simple.

Indeed you are.

You refer to two possibilities on a spectrum of possibilities. Given that neither of your possibilities pertained, then even by your own (peculiar and demented) measure, the aid workers were right to resist.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

One of the television reports that I heard yesterday included an interview with some of the people who had been on the ship where the deaths occurred. It seems that those on board were trying to protect the captain of the ship to prevent the soldiers from taking control of the ship.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No , "flight or fight" I believe is the "natural reaction".

Yep, "programmed response", basically, and given that "flight" was impossible...

 

[Spymaster]

I think you're projecting your own preference there. And so what caused people to behave in such an 'unnatural' way? Sheer stupidity? Turkishness?

This is my best guess. At every protest there's a minority who the majority would rather not have around.

I've done lots of NVDA training .......How do you suggest that be prepared for except by doing it?

I would suggest that the (non-violent) training incorporates a module that instructs unarmed protestors to surrender when faced with stun grenades, smoke and flash weapons, and live ammunition.

 

[cesare]

Yep, "programmed response", basically, and given that "flight" was impossible...

He totally ignored this, when I was putting that to him last night.

 

[tangentlama]

One of the television reports that I heard yesterday included an interview with some of the people who had been on the ship where the deaths occurred. It seems that those on board were trying to protect the captain of the ship to prevent the soldiers from taking control of the ship.

Yes.

 

[Blagsta]

Don't be silly. I've admitted to misusing the term 'self-defence' insofar as in this case, 'self-defence' should mean 'no-defence'. .

You quite clearly still don't know what "self defence" means.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is my best guess. At every protest there's a minority who the majority would rather not have around.

the police usually.

 

[claphamboy]

the police usually.

 

[Fedayn]

Again with a misinterpretaion of what I've actually posted.

Resistance should end when it's likely to cause more harm than good.

At all times? In all circumstances? No matter what the consequences of not reisisting are?

 

[Spymaster]

So, yet again, lie down and whimper, just in case one of them gives you a Chinese burn.

More like "lie down and surrender just in case one of them blows your fucking head off".

Great, so you can be shot while lying down, rather than shot standing up.

Shot is shot, afaic. If surrender lessens the chances of being shot, do it.

 

[Blagsta]

Well it seems so doesn't it? since I know that fighting armed commandos with cutlery is futile.

Arrogant and stupid. What a combination.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No , "flight or fight" I believe is the "natural reaction".

Actually, thinking some more on this, even if the aid workers hadn't overtly resisted as they did, they'd probably have been so keyed up on the adrenaline produced by the "fight or flight" reflex that it would have been hard for the commandos to maintain control of the situation.
So I'll reiterate that if the IDF intended to simply (illegally) turn back the convoy, they could have (given their naval presence in the immediate area) made the convoy heave-to, and then boarded the ships one by one with boarding parties via zodiac. As it was they chose the telegenic method of having troops abseil out of helicopters, so one has to question whether turning back the convoy was the main aim of the mission, or whether putting on a display for the people back home and giving a kicking to some Arab-lovers was on the agenda instead.

 

[rioted]

instructs.

You haven't got a fucking clue have you? NVDA does not turn people into unquestioning automatons who do exactly what they're "instructed" to do. That is the province of the military. NVDA training seeks to prepare you and build up your trust of fellow protestors. It can only go some way to preparing people for this sort of attack.

 

[Spymaster]

Yep, "programmed response", basically, and given that "flight" was impossible...

..... surrender is the most appropriate action!

 

[Blagsta]

Depends, if you are convinced that you are in mortal danger, I guess you'd grab anything you could to defend yourself with.

No, Spymaster would lie down and let himself get killed.

 

[Spymaster]

He totally ignored this, when I was putting that to him last night.

Dealt with now.

 

[Maidmarian]

He totally ignored this, when I was putting that to him last night.

Still ignoring it now.

 

[Pickman's model]

Dealt with now.

yeh but it wasn't worth waiting for.

 

[tangentlama]

I would suggest that the (non-violent) training incorporates a module that instructs unarmed protestors to surrender when faced with stun grenades, smoke and flash weapons, and live ammunition.

I suggest you have absolutely no understanding of the NVDA protests which occur daily in Israel-Palestine in a co-operation between Israeli Jews, Palestinian Christians and Muslims and internationals.

I suggest you have no understanding of what they protest against and what it means to continue NVDA in the face of 'stun grenades, tear gas and live ammunition' and why these NVDA protestors are killed, maimed routinely as part of Israeli Defence action, instead of 'surrendering' as you suggest.

 

[Maidmarian]

..... surrender is the most appropriate action!

Oh my.

Perhaps that didn't pose itself as a viable course of action ?

 

[cesare]

Dealt with now.

No you haven't.

 

[Pickman's model]

I suggest you have absolutely no understanding of the NVDA protests which occur daily in Israel-Palestine in a co-operation between Israeli Jews, Palestinian Christians and Muslims and internationals.

I suggest you have no understanding of what they protest against and what it means to continue NVDA in the face of 'stun grenades, tear gas and live ammunition' and why these NVDA protestors are killed, maimed routinely as part of Israeli Defence action, instead of 'surrendering' as you suggest.

i think the word you're groping for is 'wanker'.

 

[tangentlama]

i think the word you're groping for is 'wanker'.

I think you can do better than that. Go for it!

 

[Spymaster]

No you haven't.

Yes, I have.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think you can do better than that. Go for it!

i could say he's a smug, self-satisfied wanker, but i thought you could add the adjectives.