Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[Bernie Gunther]

I can't. I think it's fucking stupid.

Fair enough, but the world would be a poorer place if nobody was willing to stand up to armed thugs acting on behalf of war criminals. I don't know that I'd have the courage to act as they did, but I have to respect their sacrifice.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Maybe when numerous posters stop saying that I'm blaming the victims.

i think you might find that people are asking you whether you think this, as a result of what you're posting. there is a (significant) difference.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Like what in a man? The ability to answer a simple question? Pretty good quality in all people i'd say. Shame you refuse to answer it as yet.

No, getting all brave on the internet and telling people to shut up.

 

[Spymaster]

No, it's merely justifiable self-defence to fight people with whatever is at your disposal when they do as the Israelis did.

Justifiable self defence that's likely to get you and others killed.

I see a flaw here ......

 

[little_legs]

apologies if this has been referred to previously. this refers to the possible justification of the attack by israel.

Israeli military zone extended

Israel has extended the military zone it has designated off Gaza from 20 nautical miles to 68 miles, one of the organisers of the Freedom Flotilla said Sunday.

Professor Norman Baech, a German international law expert and former member of the German parliament who is on the Mavi Marmara, said that states that feel threatened often extend naval military zones up to 68 miles beyond their coasts.

Israel's jurisdiction over Gaza's territorial waters are, however, disputed. Gaza is considered occupied by the international community but not by Israel, which does now allow Israel to justify its practices under its own laws.

It is believed that the military zone has been extended to pursue the flotilla in international waters, and away from the coast of Gaza. While Israel has in the past pursued such aid boats in international waters in the past, the move could be an attempt to have a legal cover.

The flotilla consists of six vessels that are attempting to deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza in defiance of Israel's naval blockade of the territory.

Beach said that such moves are only justifiable if states feel threatened. "We are no threat to Israel. We are only carrying humanitarian aid".

http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/israeli-warships-storm-freedom-flotilla-1.634798

 

[Diamond]

The truly worrying thing about that article is the Post one that it is based on - in which Turkey (which lets not forget was the principal ally of the Israelis until very recently) is variously described as being allied to Hamas, in the Iranian axis and (via the IHH organization) being linked to al-Qaeda.

We live in worrying times.

Yeah, I don't know nearly enough about the socio-political climate in Israel but it appears as if it's sliding alarmingly rapidly into some deeply paranoid us v the world delusion.

Even the ability of the US to influence Israel has fallen away sharply.

Presumably this is part of, or at least reflects, Netanyahu's media strategy.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Shame you refuse to answer it as yet.

Which question?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

No, getting all brave on the internet and telling people to shut up.

i would have told you to shut up in real life as well. not in a confrontational manner, but in a debating way

 

[editor]

I guess some people like that in a man?

<removed>

Can you stop posting up such trite and off-topic images in this thread please? It may all be a bit of internet banter to you, but for some people it's a very important issue. My friend was beside herself yesterday, not knowing what had happened to her sister and worrying that she may have been killed by Israel's illegal actions.

I've since learnt that our friend is currently being detained in an Israeli jail after being illegally hauled off the high seas.

It seems that she's been given the option of immediate deportation or staying and making a case against Israel... which woll, no doubt mean signing some ridiculous statement absolving Israel of responsibility or something of equal legal dubiousness.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

i would have told you to shut up in real life as well. not in a confrontational manner, but in a debating way

Is that how they debate in Belgium? Btw, I'd leave the Palm, and go for a Leffe Brun, if I were there. It's on tap everywhere, and a way better beer.

 

[dylans]

I'll have a fraction of respect for you when you take the time to read what I wrote, and digest it.

Iv'e been reading the same transparent drivel from you all night. It's the same old bag of tricks I've seen from Israel's craven apologists a thousand times. I'm not impressed

 

[Spymaster]

It seems that she's been given the option of immediate deportation or staying and making a case against Israel...

From a prison cell?

 

[editor]

From a prison cell?

Don't know: not much info is getting through.

 

[Fedayn]

Justifiable self defence that's likely to get you and others killed.

I see a flaw here ......

Self defence can be dangerous.

Btw, I just finished reading 'The Ghetto Fights' about jewish resistance in the Warsaw Ghetto. Their self defence was against innumerably greater odds and a far far more inhuman brutal enemy, were they not justified in fighting back/defending themselves?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Can you stop posting up such trite and off-topic images in this thread please? It may all be a bit of internet banter to you, but for some people it's a very important issue. My friend was beside herself yesterday, not knowing what had happened to her sister and worrying that she may have been killed by Israel's illegal actions.

I've since learnt that our friend is currently being detained in an Israeli jail after being illegally hauled off the high seas.

It seems that she's been given the option of immediate deportation or staying and making a case against Israel... which woll, no doubt mean signing some ridiculous statement absolving Israel of responsibility or something of equal legal dubiousness.

I'm glad your friend is unharmed. This has been a freeranging debate that's gone all over the map. The people involved have managed it well enough, whatever the opinions expressed and whatever manner. It seems beside the point, that you happen to know someone on one of the ships.

Should topics where you have a personal connection be treated with greater than usual sobriety?

 

[agricola]

From a prison cell?

According to News 24, the choice for the foriegn element was between immediate deportation after signing some declaration, and 72 hours in Israeli custody followed by a Court hearing, probably followed by deportation.

Some of the Israelis amongst them (Raed Salah for instance) may well face criminal charges. It is less than a month since Salah was found not guilty of various offences that were alleged to have taken place after the al-Aqsa disturbances of 2007.

 

[editor]

Should topics where you have a personal connection be treated with greater than usual sobriety?

No, but posting up fucking stupid pictures that have zero relevance to the news story and only serve to disrupt the thread will continue to be frowned upon.

 

[Spymaster]

Their self defence was against innumerably greater odds and a far far more inhuman brutal enemy, were they not justified in fighting back/defending themselves?

For sure. When the only other possible outcome of a situation is certain death, one should and must resist, to the death.

 

[free spirit]

I'm glad your friend is unharmed. This has been a freeranging debate that's gone all over the map. The people involved have managed it well enough, whatever the opinions expressed and whatever manner. It seems beside the point, that you happen to know someone on one of the ships.

Should topics where you have a personal connection be treated with greater than usual sobriety?

for someone who through such a massive fit about the lack of respect supposedly shown by the editor to the dead of 9/11 by coincidentally hosting a regular event on that date several years later, you've shown a remarkable lack of respect for the dead on this thread.

or is it only dead americans that deserve our respect, rather than those killed with the weapons, helicopters, boats etc. bought with US money for daring to oppose an immoral blockade?

 

[little_legs]

The truly worrying thing about that article is the Post one that it is based on - in which Turkey (which lets not forget was the principal non-US ally of the Israelis until very recently) is variously described as being allied to Hamas, in the Iranian axis and (via the IHH organization) being linked to al-Qaeda.

We live in worrying times.

oh my... this article is akin to the soviet 'pravda' stuff during the afghan occupation

the fact that at the UN on Friday, 189 governments came together as one to savage Israel

it blames the us, it blames turkey, it blames jewish organisations worldwide... everyone is wrong according to the jpost.

if this JPost is indeed 'more complex centrist position' as described by wiki, i can't begin to imagine what the right wing newspapers are writing

 

[Fedayn]

For sure. When the only other possible outcome of a situation is certain death, one should and must resist, to the death.

You have implied the only outcome to resistance is death in this case? In this case I think it entirely justifiable to defend themselves, i'm sure they were more than awarte of the possible outcome of resistance. And btw, weye-witnesses have reported those who resisted non-violently also being subjected to violence on other ships.

 

[Spymaster]

Self defence can be dangerous.

Well if your idea of self-defence against an armed Israeli commando is to hit him with a stick, I'd have to agree.

 

[Fedayn]

Well if your idea of self-defence against an armed Israeli commando is to hit him with a stick, I'd have to agree.

No, it's to resist with whatever you have at your disposal.

 

[Spymaster]

You have implied the only outcome to resistance is death in this case?

I haven't implied it, I've said it.

If you hit armed Israeli commandos with sticks, somebody's gonna get shot. And look who's got the guns.

 

[Spymaster]

No, it's to resist with whatever you have at your disposal.

Even if that resistance is virtually certain to result in the death or serious injury of you and those around you.

Brilliant.

 

[Fedayn]

Even if that resistance is virtually certain to result in the death or serious injury of you and those around you.

Brilliant.

What you said above about the resistance in the ghetto.....

For sure. When the only other possible outcome of a situation is certain death, one should and must resist, to the death.

Resistance in the ghetto meant almost certain death. So what's changed in the space of a few minutes?

 

[Spymaster]

Resistance in the ghetto meant almost certain death. So what's changed in the space of a few minutes?

You're trying to equate a situation where not resisting would mean certain death, with one where it wouldn't.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

Krav Maga on the boat it wasn't.

 

[past caring]

You're trying to equate a situation where not resisting would mean certain death, with one where it wouldn't.

Quite right. If you had enough money and were Jewish and zionist, you didn't end up in the ghetto at all - you did a deal with the Nazis and founded the state of Israel.

 

[Fedayn]

You're trying to equate a situation where not resisting would mean certain death, with one where it wouldn't.

Well we know that for some even not resisting meant death yesterday.