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Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

I knew you meant me.

I wasn't picturing you when I said 'you people'....

You know, I like language, and I enjoy looking for different ways to say something. It's possible that the monkeying with the words can get in the way of a reasoned and serious idea. Something for me to think about. :)

Anyway, good night.
 
This thread has turned into the equivalent of "Bump me baby" :facepalm:

This thread has turned into complete bollocks. All discussion about the blockade and Israel's motives for this attack have been completely ignored in favour of this stupid and meaningless back and forth about "should they have defended themselves" etc.

This is exactly what the defenders and apologists for Israel wanted.. By focussing on the details of what happened on that boat they have succeeded in distracting completely from the issue and the issue is the blockade and Israel's determination to brutally crush all opposition to it's criminal starvation of Gaza.
 
This is exactly what the defenders and apologists for Israel wanted.. By focussing on the details of what happened on that boat they have succeeded in distracting completely from the issue and the issue is the blockade and Israel's determination to brutally crush all opposition to it's criminal starvation of Gaza.

Spot on.
 
... seems to hit you people the way that devout christians would regard watching someone spit on the Holy Cross. It freezes your eyes wide open, and your brains half shut, and all that can escape through your clenched teeth are gutteral gruntings ...
Wow, you really don't have a clue, I mean really, not a clue how devout christians would react to that. :D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10208027.stm

She is probably the same MK who was described as a "trojan horse" earlier in the day.

Thank you very much. :)
 
What happened on the other two vessels the IDF boarded peacefully (ie not shooting)

I heard all the other five vessels were boarded violently, with shooting of rubber bullets, electric shocks from tasers, beatings, and the occasional rifle-butt in the eye. The non-resisting passengers/aid-workers were treated brutally in front of each other.

One of several eye-witness accounts said:
He said no one put up resistance on the Free Mediterranean, which was carrying a cargo of wheelchairs, building material and medical and pharmaceutical aid.

"Some people were hit by clubs and electric shocks. During their interrogation, many of them were badly beaten in front of us," he said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10206802.stm
 
If they fired live rounds onto the deck prior to boarding then you'd be right.

Just watched the vids you posted, btw. On the second an Israeli spokesman gives quite a reasonable defence of the legality of the raid which, if correct, has a bearing on what happened.

He asserts that a country operating a naval blockade can board a vessel in international waters if the vessel is intending to break the blockade, under international law.
The Israeli blockade is illegal under international law, thus, because the blockade is not sanctioned by the international community, and because the international community has repeatedly asked the Israelis to end its blockade on the people of Gaza, there can be no way that the action of murdering those bringing aid and preventing much needed building supplies, etc, can be twisted to be seen as a legal act.

So whilst the morality of the boarding (and the blockade itself) may be dubious, the legality may not be so.

You really don't have an argument here. The blockade is illegal.
Forcibly boarding a ship, and kidnapping both ship and occupants, and taking control of it's cargo in international waters is also illegal.
 
so in a vain attempt to refocus attention on the real issue. Let's recall what this is really about.

In 22 days of brutal military action in 2008 Israel turned whole neighbourhoods to rubble and smashed homes, schools, hospitals and destroyed all essential services and of course killing thousands.

It is on top of this destruction that the blockade has compounded the misery of the people in Gaza. It has made it impossible for them to begin reconstruction. So the bombed out neighbourhoods and smashed houses and schools remain in rubble. From the Red Cross

Gaza neighbourhoods particularly hard hit by the Israeli strikes will continue to look like the epicentre of a massive earthquake
Emergency repairs carried out after the military operation have made it possible to restore water and sanitation services, but only to the already unsatisfactory level prevailing before December 2008. The infrastructure is overloaded and remains subject to breakdown. Although chlorine is used to disinfect the water, the risk of sewage and other waste matter seeping into the water supply network represents a major threat to public health.

Every day, 69 million litres of partially treated or completely untreated sewage – the equivalent of 28 Olympic-size swimming pools – are pumped directly into the Mediterranean because they cannot be treated.

The shattered health care system cannot cope and Israel refuse to allow the sick and injured to leave the strip for medical treatment. As a result people are dying.
Gaza's health-care system cannot provide the treatment that many patients suffering from serious illness require. Tragically, a number of them are not allowed to leave the Strip in time to seek health care elsewhere.
The economy is simply dead.
One of the gravest consequences of the closure is soaring unemployment, which reached 44 per cent in April 2009, according to the Gaza Chamber of Commerce. Restrictions on imports and exports of goods imposed since June 2007 have shut down 96% of industrial operations in Gaza, with the loss of about 70,000 jobs. This has also had a severe impact on the capacity to export products to Israel and the West Bank, which has become almost impossible.

The entire strip is reduced to poverty and malnutrition is common. Gaza is literally being starved to death in front of the eyes of the world

The collapse of the Gaza economy has led to a dramatic increase in poverty. An ICRC household survey conducted in May 2008 showed that, even then, over 70 per cent of Gazans were living in poverty, with monthly incomes of less than 250 US dollars for a family of 7 to 9 members (1 dollar per household member per day, excluding the value of humanitarian assistance which they may receive). Up to 40 per cent of Gaza families are very poor; with a monthly income of under 120 dollars (0.5 dollar per household member per day). On average, each person who does work – whether as a paid employee or running their own business – has to support their immediate family of 6-7 people and a few members of their extended family.

This increase in poverty has taken a heavy toll on the population's diet. Many families have been forced to cut household expenses to survival levels. Generally, people are getting the calories they need, but only a few can afford a healthy and balanced diet. Poor families often substitute cheaper alternatives such as cereals, sugar and oil for fruits, vegetables, meat and fish. For tens of thousands of children, this has resulted in deficiencies in iron, vitamin A and vitamin D. The likely consequences include stunted growth of bones and teeth, difficulty in fighting off infections, fatigue and a reduced capacity to learn.

The Red Cross is very clear about Israels responsibility for this under international Humanitarian Law

. Under international humanitarian law, Israel has the obligation to ensure that the population's basic needs in terms of food, shelter, water and medical supplies are met.

Have no doubt. This is a crime against humanity by any meaning of the term. It must end now and Israel's leadership should answer for these crimes in front of a court of law. We in the UK should push to ensure that any Israeli leader who arrives in this country is presented with an arrest warrant and prosecuted for crimes against humanity. Israel's defenders should bare in mind who they are defending and excusing.

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/palestine-report-260609
 
Check this out.

Dozens of passengers who were aboard the Mavi Marmara Turkish passenger ship are suspected of having connections with global jihad-affiliated terrorist organizations, defense officials said on Tuesday, amid growing concerns that Turkish warships would accompany a future flotilla to the Gaza Strip.

According to the defense officials, the IDF has identified about 50 passengers on the ship who could have terrorist connections with global jihad-affiliated groups.

During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests and night-vision goggles, as well as gas masks. On Monday morning, at least nine foreign activists were killed during the navy’s takeover of the Mavi Marmara, which was trying to break Israel’s blockade of the Gaza Strip.


http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169


Proof? Pictures? I thought not.....
 
This thread has turned into complete bollocks. All discussion about the blockade and Israel's motives for this attack have been completely ignored in favour of this stupid and meaningless back and forth about "should they have defended themselves" etc.

This is exactly what the defenders and apologists for Israel wanted.. By focussing on the details of what happened on that boat they have succeeded in distracting completely from the issue and the issue is the blockade and Israel's determination to brutally crush all opposition to it's criminal starvation of Gaza.
I fear that's true.
 
Check this out.




http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169


Proof? Pictures? I thought not.....

I am sure they will manufacture some pictures to wave around. They can show what they like I don't believe a word of it. Here are a few pictures to wave back

destroyed01_m.jpg


destroyed14_m.jpg


destroyed18_m.jpg


Their lies fool no one. We know who the criminals are and the world must make them answer for their actions
 
More interesting stuff from Craig Murray:

NATO HQ in Brussels is today a very unhappy place. There is a strong understanding among the various national militaries that an attack by Israel on a NATO member flagged ship in international waters is an event to which NATO is obliged - legally obliged, as a matter of treaty - to react......

more here

P.S. Agree, shame about the pages of complete bollocks on this thread.
 
planning to resist the IDF storming the boat by violent means :facepalm:
particularly Bozon like as it appears quite a few people on the boat were either not up for it or ignorant of the plan.
so you kill capture or force the first wave of commandos back you think the IDF are going to give up?
 
I'm surprised there's not any donkey jawbones or throwing stones in that mishmash.....

Mattock handles, grinding discs, assorted kitchen knives, flares - these materials are a mixture of the normal things you find on board a passenger ship, and some of the cargo that can be used for construction and building.

All these items were artistically arranged by the IDF photographer, who placed the knives on an Islamic flag, and positioned an Arab-style scarf in the foreground between the knives and the grinding discs (not CD's as someone previously thought).

I'm quite certain that the IDF photographer was not trying to imply a connection between Islam and Halal food preparation here.
 
planning to resist the IDF storming the boat by violent means :facepalm:
particularly Bozon like as it appears quite a few people on the boat were either not up for it or ignorant of the plan.
so you kill capture or force the first wave of commandos back you think the IDF are going to give up?
The IDF were firing before they boarded the ship Mavi Mamara. It's possible that one or more of the sleeping deck passengers were injured in this initial indiscriminate fire. It was also common knowledge that there were people sleeping on deck in sleeping bags, so the IDF would have known that there were people who may have been injured by their indiscriminate gun-fire.

It's not far from the realms of possibility that people on the deck were most concerned with disarming the Israelis by any means necessary, because they were firing at the ship before they landed and they subsequently landed with guns raised. The Israelis continued firing their guns even after the white flag was raised, and they were firing their guns inside the ship as they moved through the decks.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility to suggest that the people on deck thought "Soldiers are landing with guns - there are already injuries to our friends, we need to disarm the soldiers quickly before anyone else gets hurt".

The type of response from the deck of the Mavi Mamara suggests that life-threatening or fatal injuries had already occurred to those who had been sleeping on deck before the Israelis tried to board using ropes from a helicopter.

The Israelis were boarding illegally, in international waters, using life-threatening methods (indiscriminate gun-fire), to prevent their illegal blockade from being broken. The Israelis did not care to limit any potential loss of life on board the Mavi Mamara, and that was obvious even before they tried to board the ship from the hovering helicopter.
 
got you pm dylans, im flying back to the uk today from MD and will return to the post lateer (and yours too sihhi) but i wanted to say:

there is a difference between jewish nationalism and zionism, i heard a very interesting documentary bout a year ago on radio 4 about jews in new york who are reviving yiddish and yiddish culture and the culture that was lost or forgotten in the holocaust, it was the most hopeful thing ive heard an a long time, young jews who are not necessarily religious feeling passionate about their heritage in that way, not the ignorant hateful way that the zionists have made it. jewish nationalism has always been somewhat entwined with the jewish religion and the secular jewish culture and doesnt have to be about Israel and doesnt have to be about hate, for me my "nationalism" is about the diaspora, the jews around the world, and i feel a lot more in common with a christian from the UK than i do from someone from israel and dont see why i should feel loyal to it just because im jewish. i do feel concerned and connected with other jews even tho im pretty "lapsed", i hate hearing about anti-semitic incidents and the like and igive to some jewish charities, and fuck when youre like the token jewa ll your life you do feel like this.
 
Isn't it obvious?

No it's not.

You've attempted to similize the struggle of persecuted jews in the Warsaw ghetto, who were fighting for their lives and had some hope of victory, with the attempted defence of the Marmara by individuals whose maximum sanction if unsuccessful is probably deportation, unless they hit soldiers with sticks (in which case the prognosis is far worse), and whose chances of success are absolutely zero.

Do you see why this is ridiculous?

Do you really want to equate the defence of a small boat against impossible odds, with the holocaust?

Really?

The Israeli blockade is illegal under international law .....

Established and accepted. :)

I guess you missed the bit in the videos and eye witness accounts where the commandos kept on firing even after the white flag was raised.

Even if that were true, I fail to see how hitting armed troops with pick axe handles is not going to inflame the situation. It's sure as shit not going to prevent them from shooting.
 
Even if that were true, I fail to see how hitting armed troops with pick axe handles is not going to inflame the situation. It's sure as shit not going to prevent them from shooting.


What do you mean "even if that were true"? Who are you accusing of lying?
 
By focussing on the details of what happened on that boat they have succeeded in distracting completely from the issue and the issue is the blockade and Israel's determination to brutally crush all opposition to it's criminal starvation of Gaza.

Except I've completely accepted the above and said that I support the aid convoys!
 
Except I've completely accepted the above and said that I support the aid convoys!

Do you agree that the siege of Gaza constitutes a crime against humanity and would you support the arrest of individual members of the Israeli government on these charges?
 
You've attempted to similize the struggle of persecuted jews in the Warsaw ghetto, who were fighting for their lives and had some hope of victory, with the attempted defence of the Marmara by individuals whose maximum sanction if unsuccessful is probably deportation, unless they hit soldiers with sticks (in which case the prognosis is far worse), and whose chances of success are absolutely zero
So how many people have been murdered over the years after hitting Israeli soldiers with sticks? And how many have been murdered without being anywhere near a stick? The IDF have form: the idea that you'd be safe if you didn't have any sort of weapon is ludicrous. You really are desperate.
 
Also the idea that the Warsaw jews had a chance against the might of the Nzi war machine is a bit silly. That they managed to take out so many german troops is a testament to thier bravery but they were always doomed.
 
What do you mean "even if that were true"?

The reports that we're currently getting are by no means unbiased. And I'm leaving room to believe that any that say Israeli troops effectively executed surrendering protestors are false, pending further information.

Now, do you think that hitting armed (and according to you, psychotic) soldiers with sticks is a good way to diffuse a deadly situation?
 
Now, do you think that hitting armed (and according to you, psychotic) soldiers with sticks is a good way to diffuse a deadly situation?
No, but it's better than using gunboats, helicopters, stun grenades, tear gas, rubber bullets and live rounds. Or have I missed something?
 
The reports that we're currently getting are by no means unbiased. And I'm leaving room to believe that any that say Israeli troops effectively executed surrendering protestors are false, pending further information.

Now, do you think that hitting armed (and according to you, psychotic) soldiers with sticks is a good way to diffuse a deadly situation?

The only use of the word 'psychotic' in this thread up till now has been by you - so don't misrepresent me.

You've already said that you haven't read the thread/links, so how do you know whether these reports are biased?
 
Do you agree that the siege of Gaza constitutes a crime against humanity and would you support the arrest of individual members of the Israeli government on these charges?

Yes, very much so. I, along with others here, was on the Gaza demonstration and I will attend future ones.

The IDF have form: the idea that you'd be safe if you didn't have any sort of weapon is ludicrous. You really are desperate.

You're an idiot. You (intentionally,IMO) haven't understood a fucking thing that I've posted. Nobody has said they'd be 'safe'. What I have said is that mounting this form of defence makes an already dangerous situation far warse.

In what way?

See above.

What have you done, btw?
 
Sorry, did you miss the clear and unambiguous question I addressed to you? Or are we going to play the "ignore the issue game" all over again? I will ask it again.

Does the Illegal siege of Gaza constitute a crime against humanity and do you support the indictment of individual members of the Israeli government on those charges?

Also should the UK end all arms exports and economic cooperation with Israel and demand the Same of the EU?

(Ok just seen your reply which makes this post irrelevant )
 
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