Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[ViolentPanda]

If you're pro-zionist ... how far into international waters does Israel's right to pre-emptively anticipate and neutralise threats extend?

If you're an Israeli nationalist-Zionist, the right extends as far as you can stretch the boundaries of eretz israel. Let's say far enough to encompass the Med, shall we?
If you're a Christian Zionist, the right extends as far as your Christian G-d says it does.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

So, when faced with men with machine guns, they picked up hammers and ran at them? Or did they pick up the hammers when the Israelis were still carrying the paintball guns?

Or did they pick up improvised weapons when the Israelis started indiscriminately firing on the ships? After all, as most of the surviving witnesses are being held incommunicado, we don't actually know for sure what happened.

 

[butchersapron]

Lie down, with hands behind head?

Yep

 

[Spymaster]

And why not that one? Don't attack a boat at 4am - or at all.

I agree. But why compound a shitty act with a stupid one?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Who are the pro-zionists?

They're the pro-Zionists.

Obviously.

 

[little_legs]

Netanyahuh has no interest in peace. His agenda is clear, the cultural genocide of the Palestinians as a people. His final solution through starvation

so we just have to wait until the extenuating circumstance for his absence from the peace talks like being unelected, heart attack or assasinated?

 

[free spirit]

So, when faced with men with machine guns, they picked up hammers and ran at them? Or did they pick up the hammers when the Israelis were still carrying the paintball guns?

the israelis carrying paintball guns were all also carrying at least pistols, and yes, IMO the only chance of keeping the israelies off the boats was to overpower and imprison, or put into the water each commando as he landed on the boat, and the only way to do that is to go at them with whatever you've got available to you.

a hammer or bar would be as much considered non-lethal force as a police baton, and the police (in most countries) seem to have no problem smacking people around the heads with batons who're not even armed with paintball guns, never mind being armed commandos illegally boarding a boat in international waters.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

While the Israelis are holding most of the surviving witnesses incommunicado, it's quite difficult to say what the sequence of events actually was.

For example, there are reports of the captain of a different ship being shot. If true, how does that fit into the "official" narrative (as provided by the IDF)?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

the israelis carrying paintball guns were all also carrying at least pistols, and yes, IMO the only chance of keeping the israelies off the boats was to overpower and imprison, or put into the water each commando as he landed on the boat, and the only way to do that is to go at them with whatever you've got available to you..

How far do you think that will get anybody?

Let's say they managed to throw ten commandos overboard. Would the mission commander then go: "that's it: let's get the boys back in the boat and skedaddle out of here!"

What is the likely consequence of attacking Israeli commandos and trying to throw them overboard?

Going by past experience and all?

 

[ViolentPanda]

For me, the case for self defence here expires when anyone who doesn't take the opportunity to put their hands up and end the violence, doesn't.

In this case it's when armed commandos boots hit the deck of your ship.

You're being an idiot.
What you're stating is that resistance should be curtailed in the face of almost any overt aggression. That's the counsel of someone who either has little experience of what they're talking about, or is a coward. Resistance is good and proper, and resistance proportional to the threat, not minimal mimsy wrist-slapping.

 

[DotCommunist]

Well then stay down for fuck's sake, and don't pick up that hammer!

Funnily enough if I awake to someone lighting me up my reaction is not going to be 'stay down'

 

[little_legs]

While the Israelis are holding most of the surviving witnesses incommunicado, it's quite difficult to say what the sequence of events actually was.

For example, there are reports of the captain of a different ship being shot. If true, how does that fit into the "official" narrative (as provided by the IDF)?

like a shit plan by the israeli military to slaughter everyone went wrong maybe?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

a hammer or bar would be as much considered non-lethal force as a police baton,.

So it's ok with you if the london cops exchange their batons for metal head hammers?

 

[free spirit]

I think one should assess each situation on its merits.

Taking on armed Israeli commandos at 4am on the high seas comes pretty way down on my Risk/Reward'Odmeter.

6 commandos per helicopter, coming down in pairs, one helicopter at a time on a ship where they can only drop in 2 places... could have been done.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Funnily enough if I awake to someone lighting me up my reaction is not going to be 'stay down'

You're in the eastern mediterranean, heading for Gaza. You wake up to the sound of shouting, searchlights and gunfire.

Who do you think has come calling? It might be the Israelis; otoh, it might be Somali pirates. If it's Somali pirates, there might be some percentage in getting up and fighting.

So you weigh it in your head: IDF? Somali pirates? ...... IDF? Somali pirates?..........

 

[Spymaster]

the israelis carrying paintball guns were all also carrying at least pistols, and yes, IMO the only chance of keeping the israelies off the boats was to overpower and imprison, or put into the water each commando as he landed on the boat, and the only way to do that is to go at them with whatever you've got available to you.

Accepting for one moment the ludicrous notion that unarmed protestors could possibly overpower a team of armed Israeli commandos, without massive bloodshed (on your side mainly), what happens next?

The Israelis are going to leave their soldiers floating in the water and say "that's that"?

It's stupid.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That once you've got armed commandos aboard and you're unarmed, the best form of defence is surrender.

Of course, because you can be absolutely sure that those armed commandos aren't under orders to do anything but board your ship and detain you, can't you?

Fuckwit!

 

[butchersapron]

You're in the eastern mediterranean, heading for Gaza. You wake up to the sound of shouting, searchlights and gunfire.

Who do you think has come calling? It might be the Israelis; otoh, it might be Somali pirates. If it's Somali pirates, there might be some percentage in getting up and fighting.

So you weigh it in your head: IDF? Somali pirates? ...... IDF? Somali pirates?..........

Great grasp of geography there.

 

[DotCommunist]

And you know it is the IDF and shit your pants cos when they come in with guns blazing they intend to kill. The record bears it out. So you go to fight-for-life mode. 3 times now, I have said this.

 

[editor]

the israelis carrying paintball guns were all also carrying at least pistols, and yes, IMO the only chance of keeping the israelies off the boats was to overpower and imprison, or put into the water each commando as he landed on the boat, and the only way to do that is to go at them with whatever you've got available to you.

Channel 4 says that at least one of them was carrying a modified Uzi machine gun.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Something else. I think even regular ships at sea, carrying regular cargo to regular places, have a watch, ie someone keeping a lookout.

So, if the watch sees gunboats and helicopters appearing over the horizon, what would you expect him to do?

You'd have to wonder how many passengers were still in a deep slumber, by the time the commandos were coming down the ropes onto the deck.

These are probably the little details that don't matter, though.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

like a shit plan by the israeli military to slaughter everyone went wrong maybe?

Well, my point is we don't know until the surviving witnesses are released and can tell their side of the story. Right now the news is largely dominated by the IDF version of events and it's not like they've never been caught telling porkies. Almost all of the people who might tell a different story are being held incommunicado and any physical evidence they may possess is in the hands of the Israelis.

 

[free spirit]

So it's ok with you if the london cops exchange their batons for metal head hammers?

for years all they had to do to turn their batton into a hammer was to turn them round and use the handle as the hammer head...

a hammer could kill a man, as could a baton, but a hammer could also be used in a non lethal way pretty effectively, just as a baton can.

from what I've seen anyway, most don't seem to have actually been carrying anything when attempting to subdue the first israeli's down the ropes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Because of this, not despite it.

Bullshit.
If the holocaust has taught anything to the people of the world it's that you shouldn't meekly submit to whatever fate awaits you, even if the cost of not submitting seems high.

 

[butchersapron]

You're in the eastern mediterranean, heading for Gaza. You wake up to the sound of shouting, searchlights and gunfire.

Who do you think has come calling? It might be the Israelis; otoh, it might be Somali pirates. If it's Somali pirates, there might be some percentage in getting up and fighting.

So you weigh it in your head: IDF? Somali pirates? ...... IDF? Somali pirates?..........

Guess how

 

[Spymaster]

You're in the eastern mediterranean, heading for Gaza. You wake up to the sound of shouting, searchlights and gunfire.

Who do you think has come calling? It might be the Israelis; otoh, it might be Somali pirates. If it's Somali pirates, there might be some percentage in getting up and fighting.

So you weigh it in your head: IDF? Somali pirates? ...... IDF? Somali pirates?..........

 

[little_legs]

Well, my point is we don't know until the surviving witnesses are released and can tell their side of the story. Right now the news is largely dominated by the IDF version of events and it's not like they've never been caught telling porkies. Almost all of the people who might tell a different story are being held incommunicado and any physical evidence they may possess is in the hands of the Israelis.

agreed.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

And you know it is the IDF and shit your pants cos when they come in with guns blazing they intend to kill. The record bears it out. So you go to fight-for-life mode. 3 times now, I have said this.

So, why didn't anyone die on those other five boats. If the Israelis come in gunz blazing, intending to kill?

 

[butchersapron]

Something else. I think even regular ships at sea, carrying regular cargo to regular places, have a watch, ie someone keeping a lookout.

So, if the watch sees gunboats and helicopters appearing over the horizon, what would you expect him to do?

You'd have to wonder how many passengers were still in a deep slumber, by the time the commandos were coming down the ropes onto the deck.

These are probably the little details that don't matter, though.

Now you crossover into flith.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

a hammer could also be used in a non lethal way pretty effectively,.

So what do you do: turn it around, hold the metal head, and hit people with the wooden handle?