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Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

Spymaster said:
He hasn't done that either. Others have tried to suggest that this is what he's doing, but he's not. At best, he has questioned the wisdom of fighting gun-toting Israeli commandos with sticks, and the likelihood of such an action leading to deaths that may not have been caused by the initial illegal boarding alone.

It's a perfectly valid point too.
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As a member of a convoy delivering aid to Palestinians being woken up in the middle of the night by gunfire you are are likely to assume this is the notoriously brutal IDF and when those boys go in shooting you would know that they mean to kill. At this point the urge to defend your life comes in because you know the IDF can and have got away with murder. Wisdom under fire is the skill that professional soldiers have to learn. To aid workers and staff the appropriate response is shit yourselves and go on the defensive. This was a reactive situation. No time for a conference. Simply 'Fuck, the IDF are coming in shooting, they'll kill us all, we know how they do'
 
Fedayn said:
Read what he wrote..... His consistent criticism of the victims says more about his claims he's not blaming them....
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You're reading what you want to in his posts. He has criticised those who violently opposed the boarding, I have too.

It's just another dimension to a situation in which everyone agrees that the Israelis were out of order, but some choose to question the methods and motives of others as well.
 
danny la rouge said:
I reckon shots were fired before the ship was boarded. I don't see dangling commandos as an inconsequential event. And I think the aid workers/protesters were reacting to events.

Nobody is saying they were fluffy. I'm not. What I'm saying is that brave, unarmed people were prepared to try to repel an attack from Israeli commandos. Those commandos were illegally storming a ship carrying aid supplies in international waters.

Imagine for a moment this happened off the Korean peninsula. Imagine North Korean commandos had fired upon, then boarded an aid ship in international waters. Any unarmed aid workers who tried to repel the assault would be heroes. They would be just as lauded in the states as the passengers on the "4th plane" on 9/11 who said "let's roll" with a steward's trolly.
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Imagine it was Al Qaeda terrorists intent on hijacking a boat and the passengers knowing they were going to die fought to regain control of the ship and died in the process. They would be heroes and Presidents would make speeches in their honour and built memorials to them.

Sound familiar?
 
Dandred said:
How can you justify the Israeli actions?
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If a thief sticks a gun in your ribs and asks for your money, you have two choices.

If you don't give up the money and he shoots you, it's arguable that that could have been avoided, had you done as asked. So in a limited sense, your choice played a role in the consequence of the trigger being pulled.

But the overriding situation was, is, and remains illegal. The thief has no color of right allowing him to do what he is doing, and your resistance to his act may have led to your death, but your resistance does not somehow convert his shooting you into a legal or justified act.

This applies in so many areas. If you leave your car unlocked with a laptop sitting on the seat, you are a damn fool, and no one will be very surprised when it is stolen. But your leaving the door unlocked does not change the essential nature of what the thief does, which is to commit the crime of theft.
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................
 
Spymaster said:
You're reading what you want to in his posts. He has criticised those who violently opposed the boarding, I have too.

It's just another dimension to a situation in which everyone agrees that the Israelis were out of order, but some choose to question the methods and motives of others as well.
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You mean people who acted in self-defence against an illegal action by a military defending an illegal blockade. I know it's complicated but try and get your head around it....
 
Spymaster said:
He hasn't done that either. Others have tried to suggest that this is what he's doing, but he's not. At best, he has questioned the wisdom of fighting gun-toting Israeli commandos with sticks, and the likelihood of such an action leading to deaths that may not have been caused by the initial illegal boarding alone.

It's a perfectly valid point too.
Click to expand...

He likened the commandos to policemen with guns (i.e. ostensibly law on their (commandos) side).

He then moved to 'the aid workers had a choice of how they reacted' (as did you). Neither you nor he have yet had anything to say about how that theoretical 'choice' actually plays out when thinking time is negligible and physical adrenaline reaction kicks in.
 
Fedayn said:
You mean people who acted in self-defence against an illegal action by a military defending an illegal blockade. I know it's complicated but try and get your head around it....
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He appears to now be saying that they were correct to do so but stupid.

I think.

:confused:
 
cesare said:
He likened the commandos to policemen with guns (i.e. ostensibly law on their (commandos) side).

He then moved to 'the aid workers had a choice of how they reacted' (as did you). Neither you nor he have yet had anything to say about how that theoretical 'choice' actually plays out when thinking time is negligible and physical adrenaline reaction kicks in.
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The operative choice gets made when the plan gets made, and gets made again when the IDF issues warnings about not to proceed.
 
cesare said:
He likened the commandos to policemen with guns (i.e. ostensibly law on their (commandos) side)..
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I said nothing about law being on their side. I talked about power and might being on their side. If you go back to the original analogy about cops, I talked about how on a dark night, if a cop stops you and makes demands, even if he's overstepped his authority in doing so, one cannot escape the fact that he is a man with a gun.
 
If you just bend over when a stronger force comes at you in a totally illegal manner then you'll soon be belsen-bound. Godwins I know, but history proves it. When the aggressor goes unopposed the victims go to shallow graves.
 
DotCommunist said:
If you just bend over when a stronger force comes at you in a totally illegal manner then you'll soon be belsen-bound. Godwins I know, but history proves it. When the aggressor goes unopposed the victims go to shallow graves.
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Which doesn't change the fact that when a stronger force comes at you in an illegal manner, you must make a choice to resist, or to not resist. In making that choice, it's reasonable to assume that you will weigh the options and consequences of either choice.
 
Johnny Canuck3 said:
Which doesn't change the fact that when a stronger force comes at you in an illegal manner, you must make a choice to resist, or to not resist. In making that choice, it's reasonable to assume that you will weigh the options and consequences of either choice.
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So the Jews were right to be put into ghettos?
 
Johnny Canuck3 said:
Which doesn't change the fact that when a stronger force comes at you in an illegal manner, you must make a choice to resist, or to not resist. In making that choice, it's reasonable to assume that you will weigh the options and consequences of either choice.
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All remartkably easy from the confines of your life in Vancouver. However when masked men are abseiling down into your ship in the middle of the night, in international waters, after, according to eywitnesses, shots have already been fired, you don't have that luxury. You defend yourself as human beings so often do.
 
Ah, Jon Snow has just finished Channel 4 News with a statement that his earlier suggestion that the Turkish Prime Minister had threatened to send a warship with the next convoy was not now true. The story had been in a newspaper report but now the Turkish Foreign Secretary has said that there is no intention to take that action.

e2a I see that this info was posted before.
 
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