Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[Fedayn]

Some other pneumatic non-lethal firearm perhaps?

I'll wait until more facts are known on this but the 10 dead sure as fuck weren't shot with paint balls.

Otherwise, I agree with the Guardian extract that the troops should never have boarded in the first place. But once they did, attacking them with poles and knives was a stupid thing to do. There were no injuries (tiiao) on any of the other 5 ships stormed which begs the question, was the Marmara crewed by a group of particularly 'up-for-it' protestors. Some of the footage being shown this morning would certainly suggest so. One soldier is thrown overboard, loads get kickings, and there are reports of Israeli soldiers with knife and machete wounds.

Now if you stab an armed soldier, you are going to get shot.

None of the others ships were 'stormed'.

 

[Spymaster]

So what?

Well, so there'd probably been 10 more people alive today if the protestors hadn't attacked the troops.

The protest was in attempting to run the blockade, a creditable aim. However, offering violence to tooled-up Israeli commandos is a cunts game and likely to end how this has.

 

[Spion]

which begs the question, was the Marmara crewed by a group of particularly 'up-for-it' protestors.

The Marmara had several hundred people on board. The other boats were a lot smaller, AFAIK

 

[Fedayn]

Well, so there'd probably been 10 more people alive today if the protestors hadn't attacked the troops.

The protest was in attempting to run the blockade, a creditable aim. However, offering violence to tooled-up Israeli commandos is a cunts game and likely to end how this has.

Yet another Canuck, defending yourself = get what you 'deserve'/'cunts game'.

 

[Fedayn]

Well, so there'd probably been 10 more people alive today if the protestors hadn't attacked the troops.

Or, more accurately, there'd be 10 more people alive today if Israeli Commandos hadn't illegally boarded a ship in international waters. See, simple really.

 

[sihhi]

Well, so there'd probably been 10 more people alive today if the protestors hadn't attacked the troops.

The protest was in attempting to run the blockade, a creditable aim. However, offering violence to tooled-up Israeli commandos is a cunts game and likely to end how this has.

'Don't demonstrate - you might get shot - it's your fault if you do get shot.'

 

[butchersapron]

Well, so there'd probably been 10 more people alive today if the protestors hadn't attacked the troops.

The protest was in attempting to run the blockade, a creditable aim. However, offering violence to tooled-up Israeli commandos is a cunts game and likely to end how this has.

How about if they hadn't attacked the ship and crew? How many alive now?

 

[DotCommunist]

I think Aid worker might be better term than protester

 

[danny la rouge]

Some other pneumatic non-lethal firearm perhaps?

I'll wait until more facts are known on this but the 10 dead sure as fuck weren't shot with paint balls.

Otherwise, I agree with the Guardian extract that the troops should never have boarded in the first place. But once they did, attacking them with poles and knives was a stupid thing to do. There were no injuries (tiiao) on any of the other 5 ships stormed

Here's more of the Guardian piece, see if you agree with the rest:

If an armed group of Somali pirates had yesterday boarded six vessels on the high seas, killing at least 10 passengers and injuring many more, a Nato taskforce would today be heading for the Somali coast. What happened yesterday in international waters off the coast of Gaza was the work of Israeli commandos, not pirates, and no Nato warships will in fact be heading for Israel. Perhaps they should be.

Nothing has done more to establish Israel's status as a pariah state among its neighbours than the actions of its armed forces. Israel's navy said it met with "pre-planned violence" when it boarded the ships and opened fire in the middle of the night. Their intention was to conduct a mass arrest, but the responsibility for the bloodshed was entirely theirs. Having placed themselves in a situation where they lost control and provoked a riot, the Israeli navy said they were forced to open fire to avoid being lynched. What did the commandos expect pro-Palestinian activists to do once they boarded the ships – invite them aboard for a cup of tea with the captain on the bridge? One of those shot and severely wounded was a Greek captain, who refused medical aid in Israel and demanded to be flown back to Greece. Presumably he, too, was threatening the lives of Israeli naval commandos.

There was nothing on board those ships that constituted a threat to Israel's security, so Binyamin Netanyahu's argument that his troops were acting in self-defence has no validity. They should not have been there in the first place. The convoy was carrying construction materials, electric wheelchairs and water purifiers for Gaza's people.

As you say, the dead weren't shot with paintballs. This calls into question the Israeli version of events. Remember also that the other ships weren't boarded, so the claim that they were peaceful and the attacked ship was "up for it" is nonsense. I'm peaceful until I'm attacked, too. I'm sure you are much the same.

 

[weepiper]

'Don't demonstrate - you might get shot - it's your fault if you do get shot.'

It's like the thing kid siblings do where they windmill their arms around and say to the other sibling 'well if you come over here and get in my way it's your own fault if you get hit'.

 

[quimcunx]

'Don't demonstrate - you might get shot - it's your fault if you do get shot.'

I already had pretty much this exchange with JC a few pages back.

 

[Fedayn]

I already had pretty much this exchange with JC a few pages back.

How can you have an excahnge with someone who admits their ignorance and lack of knowledge on the issue.

 

[Spymaster]

...... defending yourself = get what you 'deserve'/'cunts game'.

As I said before, I'll wait to find out what's actually happened on the Marmara, but the pictures I've seen today don't fit with protestors "defending themselves".

Or, more accurately, there'd be 10 more people alive today if Israeli Commandos hadn't illegally boarded a ship in international waters.

How about if they hadn't attacked the ship and crew? How many alive now?

All. As I acknowledged.

 

[tangentlama]

I think Aid worker might be better term than protester

Yes, they were aid workers.

They have been described in the Israeli press as 'rioters' who executed a 'brutal ambush', 'seriously assaulting' the Israeli commandos.

http:// www. ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896796,00.html

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Some other pneumatic non-lethal firearm perhaps?

I'll wait until more facts are known on this but the 10 dead sure as fuck weren't shot with paint balls.

Otherwise, I agree with the Guardian extract that the troops should never have boarded in the first place. But once they did, attacking them with poles and knives was a stupid thing to do. There were no injuries (tiiao) on any of the other 5 ships stormed which begs the question, was the Marmara crewed by a group of particularly 'up-for-it' protestors. Some of the footage being shown this morning would certainly suggest so. One soldier is thrown overboard, loads get kickings, and there are reports of Israeli soldiers with knife and machete wounds.

Now if you stab an armed soldier, you are going to get shot.

Sure but this is where the legality of the boarding is highly pertinent.

If I get shot resisting a legally legitimate arrest, that's one thing.

If I grab a mop to take on an armed intruder and he shoots me, you might call me an idiot, but it doesn't change the fact that he shot someone while committing a crime, thus compounding it.

 

[danny la rouge]

the pictures I've seen today don't fit with protestors "defending themselves".

Why so?

 

[Spymaster]

Here's more of the Guardian piece, see if you agree with the rest:

Yes, I agree with all of it.

 

[rioted]

None of the others ships were 'stormed'.

eye witnesses

"Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat," said Greek activist Dimitris Gielalis, who had been aboard the Sfendoni. He was among six Greeks returned home Tuesday.

"They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used," he said.

He said the boat's captain was beaten for refusing to leave the wheel, and had sustained non-life-threatening injuries, while a cameraman filming the raid was hit with a rifle butt in the eye, he said.

Just cos a boats size is against helicopter landings, don't mean it can't be stormed.

 

[sihhi]

It's like the thing kid siblings do where they windmill their arms around and say to the other sibling 'well if you come over here and get in my way it's your own fault if you get hit'.

It's the logic of bullying force - you have to attack the victims - there's no other way. The victims are always responsible - their choices are foolish ones but bullies are very gracious at accepting these choices.

You will be killed and blamed for the killing afterwards, named an Salafist Islamist, and you will also be blamed for leaving your children orphaned.

 

[Fedayn]

As I said before, I'll wait to find out what's actually happened on the Marmara, but the pictures I've seen today don't fit with protestors "defending themselves".

What part of using anything to hand to reple attack/attack/whatver armed commandos (they had side arms aswell as the pint guns) is not self defence? The Israeli commandos acted illegally, end of. Ergo they have a right to defend themselves, as I said, simple really.

 

[Spymaster]

Just cos a boats size is against helicopter landings, don't mean it can't be stormed.

They were all boarded.

 

[danny la rouge]

Yes, I agree with all of it.

Then how handy the protesters/aid workers were doesn't come into it.

 

[Fedayn]

eye witnessesJust cos a boats size is against helicopter landings, don't mean it can't be stormed.

I wasn't justifying the Israeli actions, merely pointing out that the other ships were not treated in the same way by the Israelis. It in no way justifies the Commandos. merely pointing out to Sypymaster why the difference in reaction on the one ship that refused to be 'helped' to port by the'helpful commandos'.

 

[tangentlama]

I believe the IDF used rubber bullets from the outset on the larger vessel. As soon as the first rope was successfully thrown off to prevent the airborne Israeli commandos from landing, I can easily imagine that the IDF then opened fire.

The IDF are not reknowned for restraint in any circumstance you care to think of. They routinely fire rubber bullets, stun grenades and tear gas cannisters into crowds of unarmed protestors (Israelis, Palestinians, Internationals - men, women and children) at various peaceful protests against continued appropriation of Palestinian-owned land in the West Bank.


Why else would there be an urgent necessity to risk your life to subdue and wrestle the guns from those boarding, if they weren't already firing at people on deck.

 

[rioted]

They were all boarded.

Violence was used. They were stormed.

 

[Idris2002]

A survivor of the incident now says that the IDF opened fire before boarding:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire

"The operation started immediately with firing. First it was warning shots, but when the Mavi Marmara wouldn't stop these warnings turned into an attack,"

 

[1%er]

Well, so there'd probably been 10 more people alive today if the protestors hadn't attacked the troops.

The protest was in attempting to run the blockade, a creditable aim. However, offering violence to tooled-up Israeli commandos is a cunts game and likely to end how this has.

So the lesson is self-defence is violence, if someone or a group of people illegally attack you and you defend yourself, it is you who is being violent. Can you tell me in what country's that is the law?

There would have been no violence had the Israelis not illegally attacked a number of ships in international waters.

This wasn't a snap decision by the Israelis, they had weeks to make plans, but they decided the best response was to, attack the ships at night, using boats and helicopters with armed commandos

 

[rioted]

I believe the IDF used rubber bullets from the outset on the larger vessel.

I believe the IDF had already fired "warning shots" before the vessel was boarded. It was night, how did those on board know where the fuck those rounds were going?

 

[tangentlama]

A survivor of the incident now says that the IDF opened fire before boarding:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire

"The operation started immediately with firing. First it was warning shots, but when the Mavi Marmara wouldn't stop these warnings turned into an attack,"

Yes, that is what I thought. There's no other explanation for the reaction on deck of the larger vessel - they reacted as though they were being fired on.

 

[Idris2002]

Yes, that is what I thought. There's no other explanation for the reaction on deck of the larger vessel - they reacted as though they were being fired on.

Well the other explanation is that the vessel and its companions were a 'vicious armada of hate'.