Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[butchersapron]

Was the table premeditated btw or was it a desperate immediate response to an attack by masked fuckers with guns?

 

[selamlar]

Does anyone know why precise figures of dead and injured are not being released?

As far as I can tell, because Israel is keeping the people off the boats in detention and incommunicado.

 

[agricola]

Ta. What then are the exceptional cases expressly provided for in international treaties or in these articles?

In the Convention on the High Seas, basically piracy and damage caused by navigation incidents to ships and submarine cables, and pollution from ships. The other bits I have no idea of, though it could possibly involve the Hague Conventions.

 

[teqniq]

No, it's a question of power and interests.

Ah yes. Please let's not lose sight of the bottom line.

 

[frogwoman]

Good post by frogwoman

The truth is it is the Likud right and their expansionist fantasies who have brought this situation about

The humiliation of Arafat and the refusal to recognise Fatah led directly to Hamas. Every step taken by Israel to destroy secular Palestinian nationalism has fed the growth of Islamism. Now Fatah is all but dead and is it the fault of the Israeli right.

The opportunity for peace offered by Rabin was likewise buried with Rabin and his assassination was assisted by the hateful atmosphere created by bastards like Netanyahuh. To this day Rabins widow refuses to shake hands with that cunt.

Do we so easily forget the humiliation heaped upon Arafat, the destruction of his compound, the destruction of the Palestinian authority, the bombing of police stations and schools and hospitals. All the while cheered on by murdering bastards like Sharon and Netanyahuh.

The Israeli right have brought Israel to this and now they want to wrap themselves in the flag and condemn their critics as traitors and anti semites. Fuck them and all their apologists. They are a disgrace to all Israelis and we don't believe a word they say. Personally I am keeping a bottle of champagne on ice for the day someone puts a bullet between the bastards eyes

the opportunity for peace was buried with the balfour declaration im afraid mate.
it was a terrible idea right from the start, creating an artificial state on land stolen from another people. promoted by anti-semitic scum who wanted a handy way of getting the jews out of their countries.

what has israel done for ordinary jews?ever since its existence money that could have gone on improving the conditions of ordinary jews, holocaust survivors, etc, has been raised in jewish communities for zionist initiatives and for israel, for the "jewish national fund" and tree planting etc

you know what this "jewish national fund" actually does, what a sick organisation it actually is? do some research ...

there are holocaust survivors living in terrible poverty both here in eastern europe and in israel, while a few have pocketed the majority of the cash, the same people who come here and try to convince jews of the importance of giving money to israel ..........

 

[sihhi]

And if people like you sass don't stop applauding every action Israel does and supporting them completely uncritically in every situation, no matter how obscene, then next time it won't be Hamas bombing them it will be NATO.

Want that??

I do not

fuck i sound like a neturei karta rabbi like ...

NATO won't bomb Israel unless there's a massive revolution starting there.

Instead, Israel might seek to re-ingratiate itself with Western powers - to stop being a complete mad dog but return more to its role in the 1980s and 1990s weakening and attacking 'dangerous' nationalist movements across the Middle East, Africa, Central America etc.

 

[frogwoman]

I dont know, once it outlives it usefulness and becomes more of a liability than an ally for the west/USA (as is already happening)
if they keep up this sort of thing and become a de facto "rogue state"then who knows?

 

[teqniq]

For what it's worth 38 Degrees are conducting a poll; from the page:-

This weekend Israeli combat troops attacked boats carrying aid to Gaza, killing ten activists and wounding many more. World leaders have been swift to condemn the attack. But is our own government really doing all it can? A people-powered push from 38 Degrees members could make sure that our government turns words into urgent action.

Across the globe, governments need to do all they can to ensure a real investigation into the attacks and up the pressure on Israel to lift the Gaza blockade. We could help, by pushing our own government to make this a priority.

Is it time for 38 Degrees to work together to demand our government does all it can? Let us know in our quick poll

poll here

 

[sihhi]

I dont know, once it outlives it usefulness and becomes more of a liability than an ally for the west/USA (as is already happening)
if they keep up this sort of thing and become a de facto "rogue state"then who knows?

It remains an ally for the US in particular, so long as there is a strategic interest in the Middle East. No other country in the region is as pro-US or as unlikely to be toppled by anti-US forces. One incident could lead to sudden swings in control over Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt - the major pro-US states. Those states going would instantly squeeze the smaller Gulf states too.

There was an attempt to reduce reliance on Israel with the creation of a new client state in Iraq by US neo-conservatives but it simply didn't work out.

 

[frogwoman]

At the same time America cant let Israel go too far because they've still got an interest in keeping the other arab states sweet, and preventing popular outrage etc

 

[agricola]

It remains an ally for the US in particular, so long as there is a strategic interest in the Middle East. No other country in the region is as pro-US or as unlikely to be toppled by anti-US forces. One incident could lead to sudden swings in control over Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt - the major pro-US states. Those states going would instantly squeeze the smaller Gulf states too.

There was an attempt to reduce reliance on Israel with the creation of a new client state in Iraq by US neo-conservatives but it simply didn't work out.

At the risk of sounding tinfoilist, I do wonder how much of an "ally" Israel actually is nowadays - after all, they dont (and to my knowledge have never) supported the US in one of its military adventures overseas, they frequently spy on the US, they actively seek to influence US domestic politics and supporting them seriously complicates the relationship the US has with the rest of the world.

 

[frogwoman]

At the risk of sounding tinfoilist, I do wonder how much of an "ally" Israel actually is nowadays - after all, they dont (and to my knowledge have never) supported the US in one of its military adventures overseas, they frequently spy on the US, they actively seek to influence US domestic politics and supporting them seriously complicates the relationship the US has with the rest of the world.

well, yep. USS liberty etc

 

[Open Sauce]

I think it means Egypt is putting a big two fingers up at Israel.

Also worth a read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_breach_of_the_Gaza%E2%80%93Egypt_border

 

[YouSir]

At the risk of sounding tinfoilist, I do wonder how much of an "ally" Israel actually is nowadays - after all, they dont (and to my knowledge have never) supported the US in one of its military adventures overseas, they frequently spy on the US, they actively seek to influence US domestic politics and supporting them seriously complicates the relationship the US has with the rest of the world.

But when it comes to the Arab states they're always going to side with the states, which is more than anyone else there or in Europe can say. That's use enough really.

 

[agricola]

But when it comes to the Arab states they're always going to side with the states, which is more than anyone else there or in Europe can say. That's use enough really.

Well yes, but would the US have any problems with the Arab world anyway if Israel didnt exist?

 

[sihhi]

In case anyone is worried about Ewa J, who some people on here might know, she was not on the Mavi Marmara itself, where the massacre happened.

Full final list of passengers as the ship set sail.

http://www.gazeteturka.com/gallery.php?id=967&no=1

 

[YouSir]

Well yes, but would the US have any problems with the Arab world anyway if Israel didnt exist?

They might have more problems with their oil supply if they can't show that they can really project their power into the ME, which is the whole point really.

 

[ViolentPanda]

There is a direct line of descent between Netanyahu's politics, via Likud and a strand of pre-war Zionism that Mussolini himself was happy to label as 'fascist'

It's IMO pretty much the equivalent of the BNP's direct line of descent from the British Union of Fascists via the National Front and John Tyndall.

Except they don't run a country.

Jabotinsky.

 

[sihhi]

At the risk of sounding tinfoilist, I do wonder how much of an "ally" Israel actually is nowadays - after all, they dont (and to my knowledge have never) supported the US in one of its military adventures overseas, they frequently spy on the US, they actively seek to influence US domestic politics and supporting them seriously complicates the relationship the US has with the rest of the world.

Israel has supported US military undertakings. Usually where the US can not itself directly intervene. Overt and covert assistance to Zaire during and after Shaba I and Shaba II. Supply and training of the Contras and rightwing forces in El Salvador, assistance to Rios Mont in Guatemala. Training for many central Asian (and Georgian) armed forces right now. Attacking Osirak, attacking and gutting leftist Lebanese nationalism, attacking Nasserism - all across the Middle East.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I doubt that for at least part of the "raid" - you would think anyone with that level of training would not have let troops abseil, one-by-one, into a very angry and fully awake mob (which is what happens in the clip currently on the BBC).

The abseiling is very likely to have been an idea from Regev's office. It looks "cool", but isn't a sensible practice onto a shifting drop zone. Far too much potential for broken ankles, apart from anything else. Standard boarding tactics would have been seaborne from Zodiacs.

 

[frogwoman]

aye, israel and georgia. nice that the israeli governent can't help the jews of georgia, jewish charities have to do that, but nice that they can do shit like provide them with unmanned drones.

israel also helped a holocaust denying right wing cunt of a General (who wrote a book claiming the holocaust didn't exist) take control in a south american country, i forget which, although i think it might have been guatemala ...


but i should be standing by israel ... what a terrible anti-semite i must be.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Regev on News 24 now claiming that the Israelis had their arms stolen off them, and that this proves the "hardcore protestors" were violent and expecting trouble. No doubt the claim that the dead were shot by their own side will be along shortly.

He now claims the Israeli system of military justice compares with the British or Canadian system.

Regev is obviously relying on Joe Public not knowing just how hard it is to take a cross-slung rifle/carbine from a soldier (v. difficult, btw).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Mad Mel yuck!!!,why did'nt Isreal just send out a few ships to block this ship from reaching Gaza instead of a cack-handed boarding?

PR value. They thought they'd capture something cool for consumption on domestic Israeli TV, and they fucked up big time.

 

[danny la rouge]

For what it's worth 38 Degrees are conducting a poll; from the page:-

Worth bugger all; they're liberal tools. But I've signed anyway, for the lols.

 

[dylans]

the opportunity for peace was buried with the balfour declaration im afraid mate.
it was a terrible idea right from the start, creating an artificial state on land stolen from another people. promoted by anti-semitic scum who wanted a handy way of getting the jews out of their countries.

thing is arguments about 48 are academic because Israel exists. It's a reality and every person born there has a right to live their lives in peace.

What is important is a recognition that Israel was born on a great injustice and an injustice that has never been recognised or addressed. in fact as we all know that injustice has only been deepened.
This is the bottom line. There can not and will not and in fact should not be peace until the legitimate demands of the Palestinian people for self determination are recognised and met.

Everything else is just frilly dressing.

 

[agricola]

Israel has supported US military undertakings. Usually where the US can not itself directly intervene. Overt and covert assistance to Zaire during and after Shaba I and Shaba II. Supply and training of the Contras and rightwing forces in El Salvador, assistance to Rios Mont in Guatemala. Training for many central Asian (and Georgian) armed forces right now. Attacking Osirak, attacking and gutting leftist Lebanese nationalism, attacking Nasserism - all across the Middle East.

That level of support - much of which is in their own interest anyway - doesnt really justify the extent to which the US backs them, irrespective of the consequences.

 

[danny la rouge]

Regev is obviously relying on Joe Public not knowing just how hard it is to take a cross-slung rifle/carbine from a soldier (v. difficult, btw).

Heard him on radio 4 repeating the same shtick: hardcore protesters, intent on violence, "they started it", links with terrorists, etc. Hoping that repeating the lie often enough will work. It certainly didn't get challenged much by the interviewer.

 

[frogwoman]

thing is arguments about 48 are academic because Israel exists. It's a reality and every person born there has a right to live their lives in peace.

What is important is a recognition that Israel was born on a great injustice and an injustice that has never been recognised or addressed. in fact as we all know that injustice has only been deepened.
This is the bottom line. There can not and will not and in fact should not be peace until the legitimate demands of the Palestinian people for self determination are recognised and met.

Everything else is just frilly dressing.

Agreed.

 

[editor]

It's such a bizarre concept that people defending themselves against armed attack on the open seas somehow "started it"

 

[frogwoman]

Maybe the somali pirates should start taking lessons from them.