Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[agricola]

**BBC reporting Hamas are saying that the Gaza - Egypt border crossing is open until further notice**

 

[Sesquipedalian]

Egypt and Gaza border crossing opened,
According to the BBC.

 

[danny la rouge]

north koreans in the mediterranean? you're having a fucking laugh

I had more in mind international waters closer to the Korean penninsula; my point was not Med-specific.

 

[Open Sauce]

Presumably Israel takes the view that their blockade is legal. If that's the case, I suspect that it was never likely that they'd willingly allow the blockade to be breached - preferring instead to maintain that 'defend the legal blockade' stance by pre-emptively taking 'defensive' action in international waters.

Just how far out into international waters they're prepared to take their acceptable 'defensive' action/s, is something that interests me. It was also a question that I asked Sas earlier ... but he seems to have missed it.

Please read previous posts

The blockade has been breached in the past.

 

[strung out]

**BBC reporting Hamas are saying that the Gaza - Egypt border crossing is open until further notice**

as someone who doesn't know a great deal about the situation, what does this mean?

 

[weepiper]

as someone who doesn't know a great deal about the situation, what does this mean?

I think it means Egypt is putting a big two fingers up at Israel.

 

[teqniq]

Thanks for the info regarding the military order tangentlama. Have emailed 'The world at 1' (Radio 4) but I too don't expect much...

 

[treelover]

I think they expected it to get very tense in Israeli waters yes, sounds reasonable to me. But to be murdered in international waters? Well given no-one else the US/UK and especially the Turkish govt who sponsored it expected it, then no.

while the attack on the Commandos maybe was spontaneous, looking at the videos, the rioters had gas masks, metal sticks, tear gas grenade or plural. Imo, i suspect most people on the ship were pacifists, etc, but a small perhaps self selected group may have set themselves up as a 'self defence' force. as for not expecting it, a fair few of these activists has involvement in the anti-globalisation movements of the 00's, and would have expected the unexpected(as happened in genoa, where it was incredible more lives were not lost)

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Does anyone know why precise figures of dead and injured are not being released?

 

[agricola]

as someone who doesn't know a great deal about the situation, what does this mean?

It means the blockade is effectively pointless because everything (and this now includes weapons and ammunition) can just drive over the border. It may also mean that the Egyptians consider the benefit they get from acting with the Israelis (which basically is huge wedges of cash off the yanks) is no longer worthwhile.

 

[cesare]

Please read previous posts

The blockade has been breached in the past.

Please note my use of "willingly".

 

[Citizen66]

Protecting their nation and their people.

The ones living in the country they stole and on land they continue to steal?

 

[tangentlama]

while the attack on the Commandos maybe was spontaneous, looking at the videos, the rioters had gas masks, metal sticks, tear gas grenade or plural. Imo, i suspect most people on the ship were pacifists, etc, but a small perhaps self selected group may have set themselves up as a 'self defence' force. as for not expecting it, a fair few of these activists has involvement in the anti-globalisation movements of the 00's, and would have expected the unexpected(as happened in genoa, where it was incredible more lives were not lost)

Where have you got this crap from? How is it that a declared Islam-phobic recluse like you knows exactly what happened on board?

Please reveal the source for your Regev-like repetition of how Israel would rather the world viewed their unjustifiable actions.

 

[dylans]

An Open Letter by Jeff Halper to the Israeli Jewish Public: Support the Gaza Flotilla. Take responsibility for your governments actions

We must resist the self-serving and disempowering statements of our political leaders who would have us believe that there is no solution to the conflict with the Palestinians, that there is “no partner for peace,” that we are doomed to perpetual war and, therefore, we must become permanent oppressors. The Palestinians are not our enemies; our own political leaders are. The very fact that I, an Israeli Jew, was welcomed by the people of Gaza makes that very point, and it is the message they asked me to convey to you. But they also insist on their rights: self-determination.
We of the Israeli peace camp refuse to be enemies with our Palestinian neighbors. We recognize that as the infinitely stronger party in the conflict, we Israelis must accept responsibility for our failed and oppressive policies.

http://theonlydemocracy.org/2010/05...aeli-jewish-public-support-the-gaza-flotilla/
This is the bottom line. Israelis have to stand up against the fascist agenda of Netanyahuh the man who incited the killing of Rabin. They have to take responsibility for the shameful behaviour of their government and demand an end to expansion, settlement and aggression. Until they do all the outrage of the world will come to nothing.

I have posted all the news I have of demonstrations in Israel and I will continue to do so, opposition exists and it is heartening. Those opposed to Netanyahuh are heroic to stand up against the hurricane of hysteria surrounding them. They deserve our respect, but have no doubt they are tiny and isolated and all the evidence suggests the Israeli public is firmly behind this fascist government

 

[agricola]

Where have you got this crap from? How is it that a declared Islam-phobic recluse like you knows exactly what happened on board?

Please reveal the source for your Regev-like repetition of how Israel would rather the world viewed their unjustifiable actions.

Look, it is surely unarguable that the reception some of those commandos got was clearly violent and some of them definately got battered. The decision by the IDF to drop them, individually, into the mob is clearly what kicked all of this off.

However I doubt the people aboard had tear gas grenades, and gas masks / "weapons" (axes, metal poles, cutlery etc) are usually to be found aboard large ships anyway, that people had those items does not suggest premeditation.

 

[treelover]

Where have you got this crap from? How is it that a declared Islam-phobic recluse like you knows exactly what happened on board?

you prick, its on the videos that are being broadcast hourly on all the media, I am no Israel supporter, but I do like to make my own judgement and wait for the facts

oh, and whats with the 'recluse' bit, know something i don't

 

[Doctor Carrot]

The BBC bias is pretty bloody awful isn't it? I never really gave it much stock before but there's just little things you notice isn't there? Like this piece on now the reporter said (paraphrase):

The ceasefire ended in December 2008 when Israel launched a three week assault on Gaza in response to Hamas rocket attacks

True, except they missed out the bit where Israel actually broke the ceasefire initially by killing six people allegedly digging a tunnel. It was these killings that started the rocket fire again.

 

[tangentlama]

Look, it is surely unarguable that the reception some of those commandos got was clearly violent and some of them definately got battered. The decision by the IDF to drop them, individually, into the mob is clearly what kicked all of this off.

However I doubt the people aboard had tear gas grenades, and gas masks / "weapons" (axes, metal poles, cutlery etc) are usually to be found aboard large ships anyway, that people had those items does not suggest premeditation.

I agree with you about the ''weapons'' being everyday items.

The gas-masks are essential to carry since the IDF and the border police deploy tear-gas against peace activists on a daily basis.

I look forward to hearing from the detained when they are released.

 

[weepiper]

The BBC bias is pretty bloody awful isn't it? I never really gave it much stock before but there's just little things you notice isn't there, like this piece on now the reporter said (paraphrase):



True, except they missed out the bit where Israel actually broke the ceasefire initially by killing six people allegedly digging a tunnel. It was these killings that started the rocket fire again.

yep, I'm noticing it more and more too... just now they said 'when Hamas took control of Gaza in 2007'. Oh, I think you mean when they were elected by the public

 

[frogwoman]

Sorry to hear that you had a friend on the ships. Israel did give clear warning however that the convoy would not get through the blockade.

Why are so many people appearing to support Hamas, an unelected body who took Gaza at gunpoint, rather than Israel who have a democratically elected government? Why support a body that is firing rockets into a civilian population?

Fuck off, anti-semitic cunt.

 

[Diamond]

while the attack on the Commandos maybe was spontaneous, looking at the videos, the rioters had gas masks, metal sticks, tear gas grenade or plural. Imo, i suspect most people on the ship were pacifists, etc, but a small perhaps self selected group may have set themselves up as a 'self defence' force. as for not expecting it, a fair few of these activists has involvement in the anti-globalisation movements of the 00's, and would have expected the unexpected(as happened in genoa, where it was incredible more lives were not lost)

Yep, I think that's probably about the measure of things.

Not paramilitaries by any extent but certainly not naive greenhorns either.

 

[Blagsta]

you prick, its on the videos that are being broadcast hourly on all the media, I am no Israel supporter, but I do like to make my own judgement and wait for the facts

oh, and whats with the 'recluse' bit, know something i don't

It does rather sound like you're being an apologist.

 

[Diamond]

Look, it is surely unarguable that the reception some of those commandos got was clearly violent and some of them definately got battered. The decision by the IDF to drop them, individually, into the mob is clearly what kicked all of this off.

However I doubt the people aboard had tear gas grenades, and gas masks / "weapons" (axes, metal poles, cutlery etc) are usually to be found aboard large ships anyway, that people had those items does not suggest premeditation.

I think the premeditation is more evidenced by the reception that the commandos got.

It doesn't necessarily have to constitute sailing with a weapons cache.

If you go into a situation with an item that has been adapted for or is being employed as a weapon with violent intent then that is premeditation in my book.

 

[treelover]

exactly, plenty of posters on here have 'form' they know what happens on these large scale protests, how there are always a few who want to take it further, why is it hard to believe, the propaganda from Regev and co doesn't negate the possibility that this was the case.


having said that, i don't really know what happened as neither do the posters, though of course a number of people are now dead, tragic.

 

[quimcunx]

I think the premeditation is more evidenced by the reception that the commandos got.

It doesn't necessarily have to constitute sailing with a weapons cache.

If you go into a situation with an item that has been adapted for or is being employed as a weapon with violent intent then that is premeditation in my book.

So if some drunk follows me home and threatens to break into my house in the middle of the night if I keep a magilite torch by my bed that is premeditated violence on my part?

 

[agricola]

I think the premeditation is more evidenced by the reception that the commandos got.

It doesn't necessarily have to constitute sailing with a weapons cache.

If you go into a situation with an item that has been adapted for or is being employed as a weapon with violent intent then that is premeditation in my book.

The reception doesnt prove premeditation - I would bet that the last thing the mob of people on deck expected is for the IDF to be daft enough to drop individual soldiers armed with paintball guns into their midst. As for them having poles and sticks, that was probably just for show as well (given the gunboats that were to either side) until the idiocy started.

yep, I'm noticing it more and more too... just now they said 'when Hamas took control of Gaza in 2007'. Oh, I think you mean when they were elected by the public

The BBC at least has an excuse that it has to face the wave of "complaints" generated by any anti-Israeli coverage, the criticism from the Murdoch press and the lack of support from the government.

 

[butchersapron]

I think the premeditation is more evidenced by the reception that the commandos got.

This is possibly the most bizarre thing ever posted on U75. Look at what you've said - those three bolded words especially

 

[tangentlama]

exactly, plenty of poster on here have 'form' they know what happens on these large scale protests, how there are always a few who want to take it further,

having said that, i don't really know what happened as neither do the posters, though of course a number of people are now dead, tragic.

Yes, it is tragic.

I see that you are happy to repeat Regev's spin, add a little unknowledgeable insinuation of your own and finish with what must now be a trademark anti-left comment.

I see Diamond is also happy to insinuate and spin those Regev comments further, by impossibly implying s/he knows the intent of the activists, and that intent is the same as implied by Regev.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Save your typing time, the anti-Semitic brigade will not listen. They are not interested in facts, only in having a pop at the Jews on every available occasion.

They're so few in numbers, it's more of an "anti-semitic platoon", and even then, that's only if you're one of those mental defectives who equate criticism of the policies and actions of state of Israel with anti-Semitism.

 

[cesare]

I think the premeditation is more evidenced by the reception that the commandos got.

It doesn't necessarily have to constitute sailing with a weapons cache.

If you go into a situation with an item that has been adapted for or is being employed as a weapon with violent intent then that is premeditation in my book.

(((commandos)))