Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[Diamond]

So if some drunk follows me home and threatens to break into my house in the middle of the night if I keep a magilite torch by my bed that is premeditated violence on my part?

I don't think that's a correct analogy.

If you were on a train and in anticipation of a drunk person causing violence, you set about them with a such a maglite which you are carrying or have adapted for such a purpose then that would be evidence of premeditation.

 

[DotCommunist]

I generally don't find drunk people as threatening as say, IDF soldiers tooled up

 

[butchersapron]

I don't think that's a correct analogy.

If you were on a train and in anticipation of a drunk person causing violence, you set about them with a such a maglite which you are carrying or have adapted for such a purpose then that would be evidence of premeditation.

Didn't take long to lose your moral compass again did it?

 

[frogwoman]

NOT criticising israel is anti-semitic because their brand of zionism is destroying the jewish people, everything a jew is supposed to do they don't do and everything they (zionists) aren't supposed to do they do.

and yes i kno that not all zionism is like this, but when im referring to zionism im referring to a political ideology dominant in israel today, not religious zionism of the past.

How dare these fucking filthy idolaterous apostate scum dare to speak in the name of the jewish people.

They are not jews, they have stolen the star of david, drenched it in blood and turned it into a swastika. Sass et all you think you are defending judiasm, you are defending a disgusting pagan approximation of it.

And fuck I dont really believe it this shit any more but if there is anything that will bring the end of judaism and the jewish people it is this, something that has ruined every value that judaism once had and is forcing jews away from the religion. Im sorry but if something is not done to stop it I really think that israel will cause the downfall of judaism, it will complete what hitler started.

Supporting this fucking slaughter is anti-semitic, you are political, you live in western countries and you have access to all the right ifnormation unlike the poor saps here and in Israel who don't know any better.


And if people like you sass don't stop applauding every action Israel does and supporting them completely uncritically in every situation, no matter how obscene, then next time it won't be Hamas bombing them it will be NATO.

Want that??

I do not

fuck i sound like a neturei karta rabbi like ...

 

[quimcunx]

I don't think that's a correct analogy.

If you were on a train and in anticipation of a drunk person causing violence, you set about them with a such a maglite which you are carrying or have adapted for such a purpose then that would be evidence of premeditation.

I don't think yours is. They didn't/couldn't touch the Israelis until the Israelis had invaded their bedroom.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

I don't think that's a correct analogy.

If you were on a train and in anticipation of a drunk person causing violence, you set about them with a such a maglite which you are carrying or have adapted for such a purpose then that would be evidence of premeditation.

Utter yarbles.

pre·med·i·ta·tion (pr-md-tshn)
n.
1. The act of speculating, arranging, or plotting in advance.
2. Law The contemplation of a crime well enough in advance to show deliberate intent to commit the crime; forethought

If any of the violence was premeditated, it was on the part of the Israeli commandos.

 

[Diamond]

I don't think yours is. They didn't/couldn't touch the Israelis until the Israelis had invaded their bedroom.

There is a difference between your private home and a public place, at least in English law.

I don't know which category, or whether such categories even apply in Turkish law, the ship falls into.

 

[Badger Kitten]

*applauds frogwoman*

 

[ViolentPanda]

They're as much "a race" as any other group.

No, we're not. We have a shared core culture which may or may not include Judaism.

In fact they put more store in genetic history than anyone else other than nazis.

No, we don't, except for a small minority of idiots who try to support the "chosen people" claim through reference to mitochondrial DNA,
For most of us, the only importance attached to "genetic history" is that we trace our "Jewishness" through the matrilineal line, that's all.

YOU ARE SCUM.

YOU are ignorant.

 

[Diamond]

Didn't take long to lose your moral compass again did it?

Happy with your Manichean worldview?

 

[butchersapron]

Happy with your Manichean worldview?

I'm on the right side yes.

 

[frogwoman]

rumplestilskin!
the emperor wears no clothes
etc etc

and remember, somewhere in the mix a holocaust victim will be wheeled out to say nothing's changed, the world is full of anti-semites blah blah our right to peacefully enslave the palestinians blah blah mark regev justifying evil on our tv screens yet again
someone please kill that cunt. please. please
*passes round the hat*
donations also accepted for iran's nuclear program

actually got that right, the world is full of anti-semites, its endemic in parts of eastern europe, and what is israel doing to stop it?? thats right.

NOTHING.


where was israel when their christian zionist mates bullied and terrorised a jewish family out of their homes in the states?? Nowhere,

 

[butchersapron]

There is a difference between your private home and a public place, at least in English law.

I don't know which category, or whether such categories even apply in Turkish law, the ship falls into.

You think this comes under Turkish law? Are you kidding? Do some reading. Even of this thread.

 

[Diamond]

I'm on the right side yes.

There are only ever two sides, then?

 

[butchersapron]

There are only ever two sides, then?

There are in this.

Pathetic attempt at 'ever'.

 

[agricola]

You think this comes under Turkish law? Are you kidding? Do some reading. Even of this thread.

butchers, events on turkish-flagged ships on the high seas occur and should be dealt with under turkish jurisdiction.

 

[butchersapron]

Voerwod - my side of the story.

 

[Blagsta]

exactly, plenty of posters on here have 'form' they know what happens on these large scale protests, how there are always a few who want to take it further, why is it hard to believe, the propaganda from Regev and co doesn't negate the possibility that this was the case.


having said that, i don't really know what happened as neither do the posters, though of course a number of people are now dead, tragic.

We do know what happened. Israel illegally boarded a turkish ship.

 

[butchersapron]

butchers, events on turkish-flagged ships on the high seas occur and should be dealt with under turkish jurisdiction.

Is that right? What do you mean by should btw?

 

[Diamond]

You think this comes under Turkish law? Are you kidding? Do some reading. Even of this thread.

My reading of the Craig Murray quotation from editor is that it is more likely than not that it will fall under Turkish law.

Ultimately, it's a question of opinion though.

 

[butchersapron]

My reading of the Craig Murray quotation from editor is that it is more likely than not that it will fall under Turkish law.

Ultimately, it's a question of opinion though.

No, it's a question of power and interests.

 

[quimcunx]

There is a difference between your private home and a public place, at least in English law.

I don't know which category, or whether such categories even apply in Turkish law, the ship falls into.

Well it's turkish law in this instance. But again if that drunk is lurching over me threatening me then premeditation is theirs not mine for feeling threatened and scared taking my handbag sized hairspray out of my bag and using it as an improvised cs spray.



Just some some israeli on ITV news being asked if they found weapons. He said well if bars and pipes and knives this size are weapons then yes. That is not a group of youths going out tooled up looking for a fight that is someone grabbing whatever is to hand when they feel threatened.

 

[Diamond]

These are a couple of my posts from late last night that explain my reading of what went on. I think it's vitally important to clarify exactly what the chain of events are in order to identify exactly what crimes were committed. It doesn't do anyone any favours to be reductive about the situation.

Just to back up some of the stuff I wrote earlier...

This is the report that Melanie Phillips referred to:

http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS WP 2006-7.web.pdf

It is prima facie credible and makes for interesting reading on the IHH and the wider nexus between Islamic charities and militant Islam.

This is the IDF recording with radio chatter from their onlookers:



Broadly it backs up the Israeli version of being attacked by the protesters.

More specifically it verifies Israeli claims that the soldiers were principally armed with paintball guns - at 1.01-1.03 on the recording you can clearly make out a the hopper of the paintball gun as the soldier levels his weapon.

This video appears to show roughly the same timeframe as the one above except from the angle of those on the deck - i.e. the initial moment of boarding:



It appears to show an Israeli soldier being stabbed, albeit with a small blade, possibly a kitchen knife. The general impression is of a melee.

A final point, there appears also to have been at least one activist who was recorded wearing a gas-mask while in and around the central scenes.

My general sense is that the Israeli's are subtly and successfully conducting a highly sophisticated PR operation that is refocusing the news agenda on what they want.

The real issue isn't so much the point of attack but what happened in the minutes immediately after the footage released by the IDF.

They would rather the issue centers on what appears to be the logical starting point in all violence - who attacked who first.

They know that they are on relatively strong ground with regard to that.

The evidence persuasively shows aggression and pre-meditation on the part of the passengers thereby vindicating some of the Israeli claims.

However, the real issue must be the manner in which they retook the ship and the behaviour of their soldiers in the aftermath of the initial fracas.

None of the videos released so far record the time period after which the soldiers had been granted the authority to commence live firing.

In that period 9 people died.

Why did they have to continue shooting to such deadly effect?

 

[agricola]

Is that right? What d you mean by should btw?

Yes. Article 6 of the Convention on the High Seas:

1. Ships shall sail under the flag of one State only and, save in exceptional cases expressly provided for in
international treaties or in these articles, shall be subject to its exclusive jurisdiction on the high seas. A ship may
not change its flag during a voyage or while in a port of call, save in the case of a real transfer of ownership or
change of registry.

 

[sihhi]

btw, on Guardian CIf there are over 1000 posts on one article on the alleged atrocity, what happened is appalling, but these things are happening say in S/America all the time, it does show the obsession the UK left has with IP

We're all adults, let's not play silly, overall less NATO aid is given to countries like Colombia compared to Israel.

Also there are far fewer attempts to justify massacres committed by right-wing forces in Colombia, there is an organised movement dedicated to supporting and in awe of Israeli state power.

Guardian cif has pro-Zionists outlandishly goading and baiting the pro-international law majority - hence the massive threads.

It's not some massive conspiracy Ehud Barak retains wells of liberal and not-so-liberal support. Hired mercenaries in Colombia don't.

If you want to stop that obsession you have to do something like highlighting the massacres in Colombia.

http://www.frontlinedefenders.org/node/2539/action

 

[butchersapron]

Broadly it backs up the Israeli version of being attacked by the protesters.

How? By jedi-mind games??

 

[frogwoman]

They went onto the ship first. If a burglar comes in to your house with a machine gun and you attack them with a knife and slightly hurt them does it make you wrong? Only in Israel it seems.

 

[dylans]

Good post by frogwoman

The truth is it is the Likud right and their expansionist fantasies who have brought this situation about

The humiliation of Arafat and the refusal to recognise Fatah led directly to Hamas. Every step taken by Israel to destroy secular Palestinian nationalism has fed the growth of Islamism. Now Fatah is all but dead and is it the fault of the Israeli right.

The opportunity for peace offered by Rabin was likewise buried with Rabin and his assassination was assisted by the hateful atmosphere created by bastards like Netanyahuh. To this day Rabins widow refuses to shake hands with that cunt.

Do we so easily forget the humiliation heaped upon Arafat, the destruction of his compound, the destruction of the Palestinian authority, the bombing of police stations and schools and hospitals. All the while cheered on by murdering bastards like Sharon and Netanyahuh.

The Israeli right have brought Israel to this and now they want to wrap themselves in the flag and condemn their critics as traitors and anti semites. Fuck them and all their apologists. They are a disgrace to all Israelis and we don't believe a word they say. Personally I am keeping a bottle of champagne on ice for the day someone puts a bullet between the bastards eyes

 

[two sheds]

*applauds frogwoman*

^^^ this

 

[butchersapron]

Yes. Article 6 of the Convention on the High Seas:

Ta. What then are the exceptional cases expressly provided for in international treaties or in these articles? I've looked at the piracy clauses, they don't cover it.