Israel in coordinated missile attacks on Gaza
- Thread starter Fez909
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Maybe
elbows
Well-Known Member
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
snippet
foreign journalists banned by Israel
George Galloway, of course, seems to be the only MP involved in the demos. Go me.
Hopefully there will be an incursion and many soldiers will die. That's always really bad for the politicians. That's what happened last time.
Yes, the Palestinian president blamed his own people for the war-crime. For 'not extending the cease-fire'.
But we are where we are
And the vicious circle goes on and on, which is why hamas are not the right people to lead those people, a mature, brave approach is whats needed, a commitment to peace and an acceptance of israels right to exist, with that you can move forward, righting some of the wrongs israel have committed over time. Nothing will change while israel is under attack.
N_igma
Epistemic nuisance
And why do you think they are under attack? Neither side are blameless in this conflict, there's no point pointing fingers at one side and say they should do this that and the other without recognising there are problems on the other.
If everything was so rosey the Palestinian people wouldn't have voted Hamas in in the first place.
Spion
I hear ya
I don't see Israel accepting Palestine's right to exist. Do you? All I see is the Israeli state and settlers stealing land (ie, most of the WB) and holding Gaza in siege, with only humanitarian aid getting in. The West Bank and Gaza are full of people who have been made refugees several times over, chased again and again over decades from land which they once lived on. Nothing will change until that injustice is addressed. But you think they should accept 'Israel's right to exist' first.
Spion
I hear ya
Oh yeah, 'terrorists' with shit, ineffective weapons that have killed about 10 people since 2000 = bad. A state that kills 600 people in Gaza in a year = good.
It's remarkable. The world turned upside down
The Israeli left-wing Meretz party is supporting the attack on Hamas. They issued a rare statement calling for military action last Thursday; "The time has come to act without compromise and without narrow political considerations to protect the residents of Gaza-area communities and Sderot". Meretz, which usually calls for negotiation and dialogue with Palestinian militants, said the current escalation in rocket attacks has left Israel with no choice but to work on two fronts simultaneously. "Strike Hamas in a targeted manner and work for a new cease-fire," it said.
While I don't think that the Palestinian government is doing much of a job even considering the lousy situation they have to govern over I have to agree 100% with VP on the point that it was the will of the people to elect them and frankly fuck all to do with an occupying power or an outside force.
As for promises made by the Israeli government they do tend to be bollocks
It appears that way to me too. Israel is occupying Palestian lands, and furthermore it is making life intolerable in the areas they are left in. That is prior to outrightly bombing and attacking them like they now are. But Purplex and others like him identify the root problem as the Palestinians not recognising the rights of Israel. As you say the world turned upside down.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
whether israel has a right to exist or not, what we can all agree on, i hope, is that israeli PEOPLE have a right to exist.
but what do the zionists mean when they say israel has a right to exist that palestinians "should accept"?
a lot of the time what they mean isn't that israelis (a lot of whom are actually arab) have a right to live in peace with their neighbours, they mean that israel has a right to exist AS A JEWISH STATE.
but what does this mean exactly?
what does "a jewish state" mean to the Israeli government?
and when you look at what they actually mean by this is it any wonder that some palestinians don't want to accept it?
but what do the zionists mean when they say israel has a right to exist that palestinians "should accept"?
a lot of the time what they mean isn't that israelis (a lot of whom are actually arab) have a right to live in peace with their neighbours, they mean that israel has a right to exist AS A JEWISH STATE.
but what does this mean exactly?
what does "a jewish state" mean to the Israeli government?
and when you look at what they actually mean by this is it any wonder that some palestinians don't want to accept it?
Note.
I'm watching live pictures of the bombing right now as I type. I can see flashes in the distance and the retort a second later as the noise reaches the camera site.
It's still dark over there so even with daylight target searching and all the modern technology you fancy you will fuck up sooner or later killing cililians as has been proven so many times in the past.
I'm watching live pictures of the bombing right now as I type. I can see flashes in the distance and the retort a second later as the noise reaches the camera site.
It's still dark over there so even with daylight target searching and all the modern technology you fancy you will fuck up sooner or later killing cililians as has been proven so many times in the past.
Spion
I hear ya
It means for example, that a jew from anywhere can go and settle in the illegally occupied West Bank, but a Palestinian who was pushed there as a refugee in 1948 or 1967 cannot go the village or neighbourhood they were ethnically cleansed from.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Yep.
i used to think that Israel was a "Jewish country" in the same way that Britain was a "Christian country" but it's not like that at all.
The root of *this* particular campaign are the rocket attacks. Hamas knew where that would lead. You attack Israel theyll retaliate much more severely, its what they do, hamas know this, and are ultimately responsible for those deaths. There isnt a nation on this planet that would not retaliate against such attacks, no matter whether they killed or not, the intent is there.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
the complicity of especially Egypt and the murderous Christian Phalange, and the treatment of Palestinians in other arab countries more generally is fucking disgusting.
But this doesn't excuse Israel's actions. It's like saying that Robert Mugabe's actions aren't as bad because of how South Africans and Botswanans treat Zimbabwean refugees.
It's a very poor excuse and if it's the only one Israel can come up - "But what about them?" then it says a lot doesn't it?
i've said before that wouldn't go as far as to say that israel is committing genocide. genocide has become a very overused word and it should not be chucked around lightly.
it is however beyond dispute that Israel has committed acts of ethnic cleansing - which is different, because ethnic cleansing simply means the forcible expulsion of a particular ethnic group of civilians out of a territory, its always accompanied by massacres for obvious reasons but the goal isn't extermination whereas in for example the rwanda genocide the goal of the rwandan gov't was to murder ALL tutsis rather than "just" force them out of their homes.
It has committed crimes against humanity comparable to anything done by the warring parties in the balkan wars - and i don't buy that what happened in bosnia was genocide - "just" ethnic cleansing but a situation doesn't have to be genocide for it to be completely fucking murderous, obscene and horrific.
IMO the situation is approaching genocide. that crime doesn't start with howling mobs murdering all tutsis or whatever. it begins with dehumanisation, mainstream political leaders making statements promoting it or doing so in thinly disguised language, it begins with segregation so that you cant see those peoples pain, making them live in filth conditions so that they are shunned and robbed of all their dignity, they become invisible and completely excluded. sporadic massacres take place on the flimsiest of pretexts but doesn't mean there is an overall plan - YET. it doesn't mean that a genocide will take place but it it approaches it, it creates the conditions for one.
Its no wonder when they are faced with people who willingly strap explosives to kids to go kill jews. These people (palestinians) are fed a diet of propaganda and hate their whole lives. I suspect the soundbites you refer to are the vocal minority.
How do you know any specific rocket attack was the trigger for this 'campaign'? And how do you know it was Hamas?
Think about it, the people in Gaza have been barricaded, factories and power stations have been destroyed, homes have been destroyed. The situation there is one of food rationing. Not to mention the state of Israel has been illegally occupying Palestinian lands, and treating it people like criminals, like dogs I think its fair to say, for years.
It is no surprise to me that that there will be some people who improvise attacks, 10 dead Israeli's since 2000 according to Spion.
Exactly how in this context are Israels' actions on this scale justified? Do you believe they are justified?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
How sickening.
How does this sound?
The Tutsi rebels who invaded Rwanda were responsible for the Rwanda genocide because they should have known how the government would react.
The foreign fighters who came to help the Bosnians in the Bosnian war were responsible for what happened in Srebrenica. After all they should have known what crazy bastards Karadzic and co were.
The Iranians and Kurds were responsible for their villages being gassed by Saddam Hussein because they were fighting in the Iranian war.
If you are a sane person with any conscience it should sound like utter bollocks. Oh wait - you're not, are you
Oh come on, a ceasefire for six months and then a wave of rocket attacks, followed by a predictable israeli response, hamas chose their path. I cant speak for the israeli government on how these actions are justified but we all know how israel responds to such attacks, if you attack and try to kill me with such venom, 80 attempts in one day, dont be suprised when that is returned, and if you do that you have no moral basis to argue how severe that retaliation should be, if the situation is so bad, why on hell are hamas not focussing on making things better for their people, rather than wasting time, energy and resources on a futile war with israel? Should israel suffer daily attacks with rockets, do they have a moral basis to reply, yes absolutely. Hamas are a nationalist fascist organization which has only ever caused problems in the region, no good will come from there continued existence imo.
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
The building of settlements and annexation of Palestinian land by Israeli settlers still continues, despite UN resolutions and their illegality in international law.I don't see Israel accepting Palestine's right to exist. Do you? All I see is the Israeli state and settlers stealing land (ie, most of the WB) and holding Gaza in siege, with only humanitarian aid getting in. The West Bank and Gaza are full of people who have been made refugees several times over, chased again and again over decades from land which they once lived on. Nothing will change until that injustice is addressed. But you think they should accept 'Israel's right to exist' first.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Israel have one of the most powerful armies in the world.
When was the last time a suicide bombing killed someone in Israel?
As awful as those textbooks etc are (and i completely agree) a textbook or tv programme does not justify the cold blooded murder of thousands of civilians, cutting off food, cutting off electricity, creating sonic booms, and the thousands of other war crimes and atrocities that the state of Israel has committed against the palestinian people.
the israeli government could stop the rockets tomorrow if it wanted but instead it bombs hospitals, stops food getting through, and behaves like a rabid out of control dog attacking left right and centre in some kind of sick suicidal rampage.
Do you believe israel has a right to peaceful existence?
Do you believe rocket attacks are the way to any solution?
Do you believe hamas, who deny israels right to exist, will bring a solution to the problem?
Israel have responded to outright provocation. There is a peace process under way, hamas rejected it.they simply do not want peace, so they get war, which is all they seemingly care for.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I can bet you that if this suicidal lunacy does not stop, one day the UN Security Council will make a similar statement regarding Israel. It won't be this year but there will come a day when the use of armed force becomes an option. i would hate this as much as you would and as much for this reason as for the atrocities against the Palestinian people it has to be stopped.
Israel is destroying itself.
It has to stop now.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
He used to be Keyboard Jockey, obsessed with dissing Ken on fact-free rants, and bigging up Boris, whilst banging on about how "left wing" he was really. Y'know. Deep down.
has it occured to you that people might know each other for longer than the period you have daned to prance about these here boards?
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
Hamas was/is the democratically elected government of Gaza.
The US stance on this particular issue is really rather hypocritical - basically they were calling for democratic elections, until the Palestinians voted in Hamas, at which point they changed tack. Basically, the US stance (as elsewhere in the world) is to call for democracy - so long as the people vote for who the current US administrations wants to see in power.
Do you not think that, given they were/are the legitimately elected representatives of the people of the Gaza strip, that Hamas ought to be included in the peace process, much in the same way that the British government eventually had to concede that there was going to be no peace in Northern Ireland while Sinn Fein were isolated and excluded from that peace process?
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