Yeah but only becasue they having nothing to lose by doing so, whereas Israel on the other hand is a different story as you know only too well, that was what I meant by "comparing" the two.
Israel in coordinated missile attacks on Gaza
- Thread starter Fez909
- Start date
Yeah but only becasue they having nothing to lose by doing so, whereas Israel on the other hand is a different story as you know only too well, that was what I meant by "comparing" the two.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
.
I couldn't agree more. Despite the corruption (which needs to be dealt with by Fatah with encouragement from outside organisations if necessary) Fatah is one of the few ways that a proper two state solution can be created with a peaceful Palestine alongside a secure Israel. Fatah for all its faults needs to be the long term administrator of Gaza. You can't negotiate with fascists (unless they are on the back foot) and quite frankly that is what Hamas are.
Yes with a state controlled Arab media (or at least a media that is not critical of the governance of Arab states) this is likely to be the outcome. The only way this could be averted would be if Gaza was stabilised and Fatah took over with guidance from external organisations such as the EU to rebuild a functioning civil society.
Sadly yet again the ordinary Palestinian has been caught between a rock and a hard place partially this is of their own making by electing Hamas who are no friend of the ordinary Palestinian.
At least the Israelis are targetting Hamas military assets and not bombing civilian areas indiscriminately like Hamas and their allies are.
All wars have civilian casualties and in an area which is as densely populated as Gaza such casualties are likely to be considerable.
If Hamas cared for the people who elected them they would have concentrated on negotiating for peace, dropping the charter clauses that call for the destruction of Israel and refrained from attacking Israels southern towns. But they have shown that they care not one jot for the ordinary voter in Gaza only for their fascistic ideology.
The primary duty of a state is to protect its citizens and this is what Israel is trying to do.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Zachor: vermin. If I had access to a katyusha rocket launcher and details of his home address I'd bombard his place in a concentrated fashion until I got my target.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
zachor said:
oh fuck off!
they're not even attacking the sites where the rocket launchers are being attacked from
they could stop the rockets in an instant, instead they seem intent on unleashing violence on innocent people.
less than ten israelis have been killed by the rockets this year.
this is not "defence" it is ethnic cleansing
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Ilan Pappe goes further:
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6374.shtml (from 2007 tho)
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6374.shtml (from 2007 tho)
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
frogwomen - you are of course correct in what you say. But ask yourself this: is it really worth debating with mass murder cheerleading vermin like Zachor, particularly given his inability to argue or even think coherently and his propensity to pluck the 'facts' for his arguments straight out of his own arse? I'd just tell him to fuck off and be done with it.
So, as I noted here, democracy should only be supported when it suits the west?
Spion
I hear ya
Any Hamas response will be seen as heroic because any response will be seen as entirely justified.
How many more people do you now think are filled with ideas of bloody revenge? With a body count around 300 as I write, how many relatives and friends and sympathisers does that translate to?
Also, everyone in the Arab world knows Israel was formed by ethnically cleansing 750,000 Arabs and that those that live in the IDF prison that is Gaza are their descendents and this massacre is the latest chapter of the Israeli camapaign to make Palestinian life unbearable.
If the IDF really wanted to 'defend' themselves from the mortars they'd use counter battery measures.
Meanwhile you spout utterly ignorant crap. You're part of the problem. You're dangerous
Spion
I hear ya
You do realise that many of the mortars fired from Gaza are fired by the Fatah-connected Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade don't you?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050402.html if you didn't laugh, you'd cry
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I find it quite interesting that aspersions are cast quite so blatantly on the neutrality of the Red Crescent without being rebutted.I *think* I read somewhere recently that Iran was sending a ship with humanitarian relief to Gaza. I'm looking for where I saw it. Maybe it was an older article, but I thought it was a current one that I'd read in the past couple of days.
Makes me wonder what would happen if an Iranian ship got caught in the cross-fire of this latest escalation of violence? Wonder if Bush is determined to kick things off with Iran as as parting gift to Obama? They've got three weeks in which to do it... light blue touch paper and stand well clear...
Here we go. Here's one article from the Jewish Post on December 14:
"An Iranian Red Crescent vessel due to set sail for Gaza this week carries a "hidden agenda," providing cover for an attempt by Teheran's al-Quds Force to spread its influence and possibly ferrying intelligence agents, an American expert warned on Saturday.
"The Iranian Red Crescent ship sailing to the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip is an example of Teheran's effort to gain political influence through social aid programs, subvert societies with intelligence agents acting as charitable officials, and encourage the Sunni Muslim street to believe that the Iranian regime is on their side, despite its Shi'ite face," Prof. Raymond Tanter, president of the Washington-based Iran Policy Committee, told The Jerusalem Post..."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1228728180964&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
There's quite a few articles about the Iranian humanitarian mission, I searched in Google news and came across loads. This was an, erm, interesting spin on it.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I don't have any figures, but I know from my own experience in various communities that unless you're ultra-orthodox, then Judaism is very much on the "lapsed Catholic" level, in that you've been thoroughly inculcated with the mumbo-jumbo, but about 80% of people only do the "births, weddings and funerals" bit.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
bullshit
Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
There are less than 24 days left to run for the Bush administration http://www.bushslastday.com/
Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
True words from frogwoman.
We'll see a rise in support for Netanyahu very quickly. Already the right-wing in Israel are emboldened and moving to support him. He has already posed for pictures beside the wall of a house in Sderot that was struck by a Qassam.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
The attacks using Qassam "missiles"?
IIRC 16 fatalities in the last 5 years within the state of Israel, half a dozen in Gaza.
Anyone with honesty in their soul and their political head screwed on recognises the Qassam launches for what they are: Propaganda to boost morale, to let Palestinians know that someone still resists the state of Israel's colonialism. If Zachor is cretinous enough to believe that the lives of 16 citizens of the state of Israel are valuable enough to be worth the hundreds of Palestinian lives taken in retribution, then he's even more amoral and self0deluding than I thought.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
its not an exaggeration to call Israel a fascist state any more, IMO.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
not really it's not something which hamas or israel want...
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
6,500 reservists called up to attack...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050618.html
this is going to be bloody and could start an escalation of meteoric propotions if the surrounding nations all deicde enough is enough...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050618.html
this is going to be bloody and could start an escalation of meteoric propotions if the surrounding nations all deicde enough is enough...
Spion
I hear ya
Some hope. The Arab states have always been complicit in the appalling treatment of the Palestinians
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
depends on the poltical capital they want to make with the new us president...
iran are calling all muslims to defend gaza for example...
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Apologies if you misunderstood.
I said:
I've no idea why your post was so confrontational and aggressive about what I do or don't believe, when I was simply pointing out that something zachor said was actually offensive and I illustrated my point by substituting some words in his post and re-posting it. So how you jump from me saying that it's offensive for zachor to say that innocent civilians brought this on themselves for electing the government they elected to arguing with me about who I blame or don't blame...?
In any event, I thought it would pretty be clear that I was talking hypothetically, given that I said: "How about if someone said something like:..."
Someone. Not I. Not me. I didn't say I believed that. I was talking hypothetically. To make a point.
What I was doing was mirroring what zachor said and substituting one country for another, and one set of politicians for another to highlight how offensive it was. And given that I was arguing that saying the Palestinians basically brought it on themselves was offensive, I would hardly be saying something similar myself, when I think it offensive.
I've nowhere argued my opinion, I've simply argued against zachor's offensive statement. Hope that's clarified that for you.
As for blaming Israel and Hamas. Well, again, just playing the devil's advocate here, but if Israel argues that it should be entitled to defend its people, then Hamas, as a democratically elected government, surely doesn't it also have a responsibility, a legal duty, to protect its people from attackers? Just wondering like.
But for the record, yes, I agree with you there is blame on both sides, the tit-for-tat violence has to end at some point. But I would point out that the Palestinians are disproportionately paying the price. How many Israelis have been killed in 2008 from the rocket fire? How many Palestinians have been killed by Israeli airstrikes and incursions? Not to mention that aid agencies have argued that the Israeli blockade of the Palestinian occupied territories amounts to collective punishment, which is illegal under international law.
Of course Palestinians have the right to defend themselves, but Hamas would help their people immensely if they recognized Israels right to exist. I believe suicide bombing is illegal under international law as well.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
anyone who is fully aware of the facts and **SUPPORTS** Israeli actions after this is a fucking cunt. One day the Israeli political leadership and military command will meet the same fate as milosevic and radovan karadzic.
if the israeli gov't doesn't stop its suicidal and genocidal policies, eventually someone else will stop it for them if you understand what i am saying. there has already been calls for NATO troops to deploy in the west bank.
don't think that they will eventually stay at just being "calls" when Israel outlives its usefulness.
it has to stop now for the sake of the israelis as well as the palestinians.
IMO this should mean that limited sanctions should be imposed and an arms embargo. as long as things such as medical equipment and the like are not affected sanctions would be completely legitimate and i would rather see these than the alternatives both of which are too terrible to contemplate.
if the israeli gov't doesn't stop its suicidal and genocidal policies, eventually someone else will stop it for them if you understand what i am saying. there has already been calls for NATO troops to deploy in the west bank.
don't think that they will eventually stay at just being "calls" when Israel outlives its usefulness.
it has to stop now for the sake of the israelis as well as the palestinians.
IMO this should mean that limited sanctions should be imposed and an arms embargo. as long as things such as medical equipment and the like are not affected sanctions would be completely legitimate and i would rather see these than the alternatives both of which are too terrible to contemplate.
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
This was an act of aggression, an act of war, a war crime.
Hopefully something will come of it.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
i think UN imposed sanctions are the best answer - like i said, as long as they do not affect essential medical supplies. i have thought this for quite a while, i wish i didn't but i honestly think it's the only way to get them to see any reason 
wait and see though - while nothing happens.
http://www.imemc.org/article/57823
Anyone know how much power this guy has?
wait and see though - while nothing happens.
http://www.imemc.org/article/57823
Anyone know how much power this guy has?
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