Israel in coordinated missile attacks on Gaza

[TAE]

But the only real way for Israel to neutralize Hamas is to negotiate in a meaningful way with Fatah in the WB that leads to a country of Palestine along side Israel.

Until the next election when Hamas is elected again? Or should we ignore that tiny fact?

 

[agricola]

I'd agree with this pretty much. But the only real way for Israel to neutralize Hamas is to negotiate in a meaningful way with Fatah in the WB that leads to a country of Palestine along side Israel.

Pounding Hamas positions may slow the rocket attacks at Israel for a while, but this will lead to Hamas being seen as a hero in the Arab world unfortunately.

That does tend to ignore the massive uselessness and corruption of Fatah as an organization (which is largely why the Palestinians voted them out), and its extremely questionable that the Israelis would ever accept a viable two-state solution. Maybe they see it like the Spartans did with the permanent state of war against the helots.

 

[frogwoman]

I'm not lobbing petrol bombs (which would be equivilant in your scenario) at my neighbours which is the sort of thing that would require stabilisation from an outside force.

If not Israel please tell me who should deal with the problem of Hamas as they are certainly not the group who can lead the Palestinians out of the current morass. Maybe you think like some that the only way this to be solved peacefully is for the former Mandate nation to take over the disputed areas? Or maybe the EU should administer Gaza because Hamas are sure doing a shitty job of administering it. Remove Hamas and open the border crossings.

that is bullshit and you know it

there have been 500+ palestinains killed this year, and how many israelis?

the "security" stuff doesnt cut it any more.

is israel in a war for its survival? no
do hamas present any threat to israel at all? no

are the land confiscations, the kids that get shot, the food and baby and medicine supplies, on and on and onandon, any threat to israel

no


the rockets are an excuse, you know it, i know it, everyone fucking knows it. do people in nightclubs in tel aviv look to be in danger from terrorism to you? people go on holiday to israel, people buy property there, it has a thriving economy,would it be this way if it was the war zone the israeli politicians make it out to be?

i wish what you were saying is true but it isn't and you have to realise that mate because one day the israeli leadership is going to be on trial, the world will not allow this to go on for much longer

 

[Fullyplumped]

we lost britian when it became the 52nd state of America. And so unconditially supported the american sacred foreign policy of supporting the jewish state unconditionally, regardless of its actions.

As reflected by the disproportinate influence of supports of the jewish state, aka the financial system and political system.

I would still absolutely love to hear warey74 expound his or her solution for dismantling "the disproportinate influence of supports of the jewish state, aka the financial system and political system". I'm sure warey74 has one.

I'm disappointed that people are letting warey74 off with this. Except Frogwoman.

 

[agricola]

I would still absolutely love to hear warey74 expound his or her solution for dismantling "the disproportinate influence of supports of the jewish state, aka the financial system and political system". I'm sure warey74 has one.

I'm disappointed that people are letting warey74 off with this. Except Frogwoman.

When theres a big troll and a little troll, most people go after the big troll. As it is, most people have either corrected him or ignored him by the evidence of this thread.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

I see the glorious British Left is showing its true colours yet again.

The real victims of all this fighting are the ordinary palestinian but a clash like this was on the cards since they voted in the nutters of Hamas. I don't think that the UK govt would tolerate an independently administered Isle of Wight lobbing missiles into Southampton for a fraction as long as the Israeli govt has tolerated missiles reining down on its towns.

This attack is a tragedy for all but by no means can all the blame be put on the Israeli govt, some blame must be laid at the feet of Hamas.

How about if someone said something like:

...The real victims of 9/11 are the ordinary Americans but a clash like this was on the cards since they voted in the nutters of the Bush administration and the rest of the neocons...

This attack is a tragedy for all but by no means can all the blame be put [falsely, considering how none of the hijackers were Iraqi, iirc] on the Iraqi government, some blame must be laid at the feet of Bush.

It's really, really offensive, isn't it? When you blame innocent civilians for some of the misguided foreign policies of their governments, and basically say they deserved to die, because some of their compatriots voted for their government.

 

[ill-informed]

the BBC are now saying that israel is massing its troops. There may be a full scale invasion.

 

[boskysquelch]

<snips b/s>

how the fucking fucking fuck is this happening?

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

the BBC are now saying that israel is massing its troops. There may be a full scale invasion.

I *think* I read somewhere recently that Iran was sending a ship with humanitarian relief to Gaza. I'm looking for where I saw it. Maybe it was an older article, but I thought it was a current one that I'd read in the past couple of days.

Makes me wonder what would happen if an Iranian ship got caught in the cross-fire of this latest escalation of violence? Wonder if Bush is determined to kick things off with Iran as as parting gift to Obama? They've got three weeks in which to do it... light blue touch paper and stand well clear...

Here we go. Here's one article from the Jewish Post on December 14:

"An Iranian Red Crescent vessel due to set sail for Gaza this week carries a "hidden agenda," providing cover for an attempt by Teheran's al-Quds Force to spread its influence and possibly ferrying intelligence agents, an American expert warned on Saturday.

"The Iranian Red Crescent ship sailing to the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip is an example of Teheran's effort to gain political influence through social aid programs, subvert societies with intelligence agents acting as charitable officials, and encourage the Sunni Muslim street to believe that the Iranian regime is on their side, despite its Shi'ite face," Prof. Raymond Tanter, president of the Washington-based Iran Policy Committee, told The Jerusalem Post..."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1228728180964&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

There's quite a few articles about the Iranian humanitarian mission, I searched in Google news and came across loads. This was an, erm, interesting spin on it.

 

[mears]

How about if someone said something like:

...The real victims of 9/11 are the ordinary Americans but a clash like this was on the cards since they voted in the nutters of the Bush administration and the rest of the neocons...

This attack is a tragedy for all but by no means can all the blame be put [falsely, considering how none of the hijackers were Iraqi, iirc] on the Iraqi government, some blame must be laid at the feet of Bush.

It's really, really offensive, isn't it? When you blame innocent civilians for some of the misguided foreign policies of their governments, and basically say they deserved to die, because some of their compatriots voted for their government.

You place some blame on this escalation of violence on Hamas don't you? You fully recognize I'm sure that both sides want to do away with the other.

I can find plenty of blame with Israel and Hamas, can you?

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

You place some blame on this escalation of violence on Hamas don't you? You fully recognize I'm sure that both sides want to do away with the other.

I can find plenty of blame with Israel and Hamas, can you?

Apologies if you misunderstood.

I said:

How about if someone said something like:

...The real victims of 9/11 are the ordinary Americans but a clash like this was on the cards since they voted in the nutters of the Bush administration and the rest of the neocons...

This attack is a tragedy for all but by no means can all the blame be put [falsely, considering how none of the hijackers were Iraqi, iirc] on the Iraqi government, some blame must be laid at the feet of Bush.

It's really, really offensive, isn't it? When you blame innocent civilians for some of the misguided foreign policies of their governments, and basically say they deserved to die, because some of their compatriots voted for their government.

You place some blame on this escalation of violence on Hamas don't you? You fully recognize I'm sure that both sides want to do away with the other.

I can find plenty of blame with Israel and Hamas, can you?

I've no idea why your post was so confrontational and aggressive about what I do or don't believe, when I was simply pointing out that something zachor said was actually offensive and I illustrated my point by substituting some words in his post and re-posting it. So how you jump from me saying that it's offensive for zachor to say that innocent civilians brought this on themselves for electing the government they elected to arguing with me about who I blame or don't blame...?

In any event, I thought it would pretty be clear that I was talking hypothetically, given that I said: "How about if someone said something like:..."

Someone. Not I. Not me. I didn't say I believed that. I was talking hypothetically. To make a point.

What I was doing was mirroring what zachor said and substituting one country for another, and one set of politicians for another to highlight how offensive it was. And given that I was arguing that saying the Palestinians basically brought it on themselves was offensive, I would hardly be saying something similar myself, when I think it offensive.

I've nowhere argued my opinion, I've simply argued against zachor's offensive statement. Hope that's clarified that for you.

As for blaming Israel and Hamas. Well, again, just playing the devil's advocate here, but if Israel argues that it should be entitled to defend its people, then Hamas, as a democratically elected government, surely doesn't it also have a responsibility, a legal duty, to protect its people from attackers? Just wondering like.

But for the record, yes, I agree with you there is blame on both sides, the tit-for-tat violence has to end at some point. But I would point out that the Palestinians are disproportionately paying the price. How many Israelis have been killed in 2008 from the rocket fire? How many Palestinians have been killed by Israeli airstrikes and incursions? Not to mention that aid agencies have argued that the Israeli blockade of the Palestinian occupied territories amounts to collective punishment, which is illegal under international law.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

As someone who likes to be balanced if possible on the whole topic, and as someone who has not taken much notice the last few days could someone clarify:

1) how many people did the hamas attacks kill

2) how israel and the bbc decide that Israel are attacking "hamas" when kids are among the dead.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

As someone who likes to be balanced if possible on the whole topic, and as someone who has not taken much notice the last few days could someone clarify:

1) how many people did the hamas attacks kill

2) how israel and the bbc decide that Israel are attacking "hamas" when kids are among the dead.

1) A couple of hours ago, Al Jazeera English were saying 210 and as they have two reporters on the ground in Gaza (plus producers and camera operators) I'm assuming they double checked with hospitals and police.

ETA: AJE at 01:16 Mecca time, 22:16 GMT "Khaled Meshaal, Hamas's political leader, has called for an uprising against Israel after an unprecedented attack on the Gaza Strip killed at least 220 Palestinians and wounded 700 more."

Guardian are going with at least 225 dead.


2) Israel usually say they targeted and killed Hamas supporters. The BBC reports it as "Israel says..." or so I would hope. Quoting what the Israelis say verbatim in such scenario, well... It's always important to distinguish between what government and/or military spokespeople say and the facts on the ground.

 

[Detroit City]

Maybe they see it like the Spartans did with the permanent state of war against the helots.

in reality all this violence and madness benefits israel in the end....so why would they want to stop it especially when they have historically had the "upper hand"??

 

[chainsaw cat]

We should remember that it is not just Israel. This is the promised land , a place where Jews have been promised a nation by God, to create a beacon for mankind, or so we are told.

I misread that as '... a bacon sandwich for mankind'.

 

[chainsaw cat]

Do you really think most of the nationalist-Zionist fucks who set policy in the state of Israel give a fucking rat's arse about JHWH's promise to Moses?
How many Jews do you think give a fucking rat's arse about Judaism except as a cultural appurtenance?

errrm, if you have figures I'd be interested. My guess is that the numbers are similar to those of the CofE who are in fact Christian in a meaningful sense.


A few hundred ish.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

AnnO'Neemus

Thanks for the reply, but when I asked how many the Hamas attacks killed, I meant the original attacks by Hamas against which the Israelis were retaliating.

For the record, the only BBC report I paid attention to today reffered to it being an "attack on Hamas".

 

[chainsaw cat]

But... but....

Israel is an innocent, tiny country that all its neighbours want to "drive in the sea"!!!!!!

They have no nukes, they have no heavy weaponry, they have no huge US umbrella over them and huge US support...
They are just innocently defending themselves against the heavily armed savages who claim they live on their own land while everyone knows the Always Persecuted Chosen People should by right of the Thora (questionable historical source in any case,but whatever) have that land. After all, they invaded that spot thousands of years ago and butchered at the time everyone to take their place (according to the same source on which they found their current claims)
I really don't know what you see them doing wrong in butchering the people who have no right to live, where they live, because it is Israel's Holy Land.


salaam.

Grow up Al.

These arab maniacs fire missiles into Israel! Some of them explode! Once in a while, someone is hurt or even killed... Can you really be blind to this?

No wonder Israel bites its tongue and launches careful, accurate and regretful strikes against the guilty, and only the guilty.
The guilty include a lot of small children but that's the dastardly nature of the arab for you.

 

[chainsaw cat]

On second thoughts, it's still the Bible over there, the load of vengeance junkie fuckwits.

 

[diego]

But the palestinans have been under the zionazis jackboots from day one , regardless of the leaders in palestine

Exactly!

 

[diego]

Apologies if you misunderstood.

I said:

I've no idea why your post was so confrontational and aggressive about what I do or don't believe, when I was simply pointing out that something zachor said was actually offensive and I illustrated my point by substituting some words in his post and re-posting it. So how you jump from me saying that it's offensive for zachor to say that innocent civilians brought this on themselves for electing the government they elected to arguing with me about who I blame or don't blame...?

In any event, I thought it would pretty be clear that I was talking hypothetically, given that I said: "How about if someone said something like:..."

Someone. Not I. Not me. I didn't say I believed that. I was talking hypothetically. To make a point.

Unfortunately AN, some people have a “deliberate” habit of accusing people on this forum when it suits them, even when the person is just trying to make a point.

Not accusing Mears btw but just making a point in general so don’t worry about.

 

[diego]

Let me clarify it. Britain does not have to launch an attack on israel to condemn it. It just has to stop the billions of trade, just as they eventually did with the racist south african apartheid.

And sovereignty means the best interests of Britain and not Israel.

How can you expect the British to condemn a nation which it help setup in the first place???

 

[TomUS]

and its extremely questionable that the Israelis would ever accept a viable two-state solution.

I'm not saying they would. I'm saying it would be the best way to neutralize Hamas.

 

[lenny101]

The UN have requested a halt in the violence according to the BBC. Makes it sound like there are two armies fighting. It seems to be almost impossible for anyone to stand up against Israel.

The sooner the US economy falls apart and they are forced to stop bank rolling Israel the better imo.

 

[TomUS]

But I would point out that the Palestinians are disproportionately paying the price. How many Israelis have been killed in 2008 from the rocket fire? How many Palestinians have been killed by Israeli airstrikes and incursions? Not to mention that aid agencies have argued that the Israeli blockade of the Palestinian occupied territories amounts to collective punishment, which is illegal under international law.

I've never found statements comparing the price each side is paying very relevant in determining "good guys/bad guys." It simply indicates the military strength of each side.

And Hamas practices collective punishment also in their rocket attacks & of course in suicide bombings that their leader is calling for:

Exiled Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal called on Saturday for Palestinians to wage a new intifada against Israel, including a return to suicide missions.

In an interview on Al-Jazeera television, Meshaal said: "We called for a military intifada against the enemy. Resistance will continue through suicide missions."

 

[lenny101]

How can you expect the British to condemn a nation which it help setup in the first place???

Like Zimbabwe?

 

[purplex]

How can you expect the British to condemn a nation which it help setup in the first place???

Incorrect, but carry on.

 

[diego]

Incorrect, but carry on.

So Britain did not support the creation of the state of Israel?

 

[diego]

Like Zimbabwe?

Surely you're not comparing the two are you?

 

[lenny101]

Surely you're not comparing the two are you?

Did you miss my point?

Britain helped set up Zimbabwe and now critices it.