Israel in coordinated missile attacks on Gaza

[Johnny Canuck3]

Well, no.

The Holocaust. Done by Germans to Jews. Who do Jews attack?

Nobody. They move to the place that the British Empire tells them they can move to.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Thing is, I haven't seen any real acknowledgement by pro-zionists that Hamas have offered discussions based on the '67 borders and right of return. Mention it and they start banging on about the Hamas charter or refusal to recognise Israel's right to the lands which Hamas not unreasonably regard as stolen.

My guess is that's because Israel simply isn't interested in negotiations on those or probably any terms, but just wants to carry on bombing the crap out of people whose most potent weapons of retaliation against their state-of-the-art military hardware appear to be home-made bombs and rockets.

 

[Spion]

Nobody.

You have the moral and logical standing of a holocaust denier

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

My guess is that's because Israel simply isn't interested in negotiations on those or probably any terms,.

Which explains, of course, why they relinquished Gaza.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You have the moral and logical standing of a holocaust denier

And you keep spouting non sequiturs like a crazy person.

 

[frogwoman]

Which explains, of course, why they relinquished Gaza.

They didn't relinquish it. The only thing missing from Gaza is the settlers.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You have the moral and logical standing of a holocaust denier

p.s. you missed this bit.

They move to the place that the British Empire tells them they can move to.

Nothing got done in the Middle East back then without the permission of London.

 

[audiotech]

I agree that the Hamas Charter is bullshit, but it's their charter. They wrote it.

The attention being paid to this document forces one to ask not merely what purposes such attention serves, but also what important issues it covers up?

http://www.counterpunch.org/makdisi02102006.html

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

They didn't relinquish it. The only thing missing from Gaza is the settlers.

How exactly did the settlers end up leaving?

 

[Spion]

And you keep spouting non sequiturs like a crazy person.

You said Jews attacked nobody in Palestine. You denied the Nakba. An event no academic historian on the planet can get away with. In terms of method that puts you next to David Irving

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The attention being paid to this document ]

Yeah: I mean, hell, why would anyone even bother to bring it up?

 

[frogwoman]

How exactly did the settlers end up leaving?

They were evicted by Israeli troops in a stage managed event which disguised the fact that other illegal settlements were being built in the West Bank, and as a result the number of settlers actually increased.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You said Jews attacked nobody in Palestine. You denied the Nakba. An event no academic historian on the planet can get away with. In terms of method that puts you next to David Irving

Oh, they fought with someone, all right.

But you compared what happened in the late 40s in Palestine, with what the Germans did in Germany in the later 30s and early 40s.

If that is what you meant by 'attacked', then no, that sort of attack didn't happen. Battles happened etc.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Which explains, of course, why they relinquished Gaza.

I don't believe they have. If they claim the right to embargo their food, water, medicines and power supplies because they don't like the electoral choices the inhabitants made, then that doesn't seem to me to be relinquishing power over Gaza. In fact it seems like exerting power over them in the form of war crimes (specifically 'collective punishment')

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

They were evicted by Israeli troops.

Jesus: why the hell did Israel evict its own people from their homes?

 

[Spion]

Nothing got done in the Middle East back then without the permission of London.

Permission? The Zionists spent years bombing and assassinating the British in Palestine. Your knowledge of history is appalling

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I don't believe they have. If they claim the right to embargo their food, water, medicines and power supplies because they don't like the electoral choices the inhabitants made,)

Given that their 'electoral choice' has a rhetoric that is more strident than the Nazis, what would you expect to happen?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Permission? The Zionists spent years bombing and assassinating the British in Palestine. Your knowledge of history is appalling

Oh, I see. Israel was created without input by Britain, against protestations and disagreements from Britain.

Can I get a copy of the history book that you've been reading?

 

[Spion]

The attention being paid to this document forces one to ask not merely what purposes such attention serves, but also what important issues it covers up?

http://www.counterpunch.org/makdisi02102006.html

Indeed, that Israel's real aims are to either get rid of Gaza or to see it burst like a balloon and the Palestinians there go to Egypt. While at the same time they make life unbreasble in the West Bank with a similar end result in mind

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I can't remember: can someone help me?

I thought Arthur James Balfour was a British person. Was he actually French, or Russian, maybe?

 

[audiotech]

Yeah: I mean, hell, why would anyone even bother to bring it up?

The Hamas Charter is toothless. What about people hearing about Israel's planning in Jerusalem and what it is actually doing now in Gaza?

The article I linked to raises an important point about double standards here:

What do all those people who have so sanctimoniously seized the moral high ground in denouncing the nominal racism of Hamas have to say about the actual racism of Israel?

 

[Spion]

If that is what you meant by 'attacked', then no, that sort of attack didn't happen. Battles happened etc.

Oh, battles just 'happened'. In the real world people were driven from their homes in a pre-conceived plan

The seeds of the idea of 'transfer of the Arabs' - Theodor Herzl, 19th century

“We must expropriate gently . . . We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country . . . Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.” (p41, The complete diaries of Theodor Herzl, I, 88)

The idea takes shape - Ben Gurion in 1937

“If we do not succeed in removing the Arabs from our midst. . . and transferring them to the Arab area – it will not be achievable easily (and perhaps at all) after the [Jewish] state is established . . . This thing must be done now – and the first step – perhaps the crucial [step] – is conditioning ourselves for its implementation.’ (Ben Gurion – Diary 12 July 1937)

The head of the Jewish Agency - 1940

“If the Arabs leave it, the country will become wide and spacious for us . . . The only solution is a land of Israel, at least a western land of Israel, without Arabs. There is no room here for compromises . . . There is no way but to transfer all the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to transfer them all, save perhaps for Bethlehem, Nazareth and old Jerusalem. Not one village must be left, not one tribe.” 20 Dec 1940. Weitz (leading member of the JA’s Transfer Committee 1937-38), My diary, II, 181

The long-held idea of expelling the Arabs is put into operation with the Zionist' militias' 'Plan Dalet' in March 1948

“You will move to State Dalet, for an operative implementation of Plan Dalet . . . the villages which you will capture, cleanse or destroy will be decided according to consultation with your advisors on Arab affairs and the intelligence officers.” Orders to Carmeli Brigade in Zvi Sinai (ed), The Carmeli Brigade in the War of Independence, p29

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The Hamas Charter is toothless. :

Not sure what that means?

 

[audiotech]

Not sure what that means?

There's no 'titanic military-industrial power standing behind Hamas’s sloganeering, and it's not as though Palestine’s awesome military might —its legions of soldiers, armored and mechanized infantry divisions, flotillas of bombers, and perhaps even a fleet of some kind — stands ready to rain ruin and devastation down on an innocent and practically defenseless Israel is it?

 

[Spion]

Too bad Meshal doesn't speak for Hamas anymore.

Well, that's clearly bullshit, although there will be power struggles within it.

And Israel's current actions will do nothing but strengthen the younger more militant layers in Hamas in Gaza.

They'll reap a whirlwind

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Oh, battles just 'happened'. In the real world people were driven from their homes in a pre-conceived plan

The seeds of the idea of 'transfer of the Arabs' - Theodor Herzl, 19th century

“We must expropriate gently . . . We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country . . . Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.” (p41, The complete diaries of Theodor Herzl, I, 88)

The idea takes shape - Ben Gurion in 1937

“If we do not succeed in removing the Arabs from our midst. . . and transferring them to the Arab area – it will not be achievable easily (and perhaps at all) after the [Jewish] state is established . . . This thing must be done now – and the first step – perhaps the crucial [step] – is conditioning ourselves for its implementation.’ (Ben Gurion – Diary 12 July 1937)

The head of the Jewish Agency - 1940

“If the Arabs leave it, the country will become wide and spacious for us . . . The only solution is a land of Israel, at least a western land of Israel, without Arabs. There is no room here for compromises . . . There is no way but to transfer all the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to transfer them all, save perhaps for Bethlehem, Nazareth and old Jerusalem. Not one village must be left, not one tribe.” 20 Dec 1940. Weitz (leading member of the JA’s Transfer Committee 1937-38), My diary, II, 181

The long-held idea of expelling the Arabs is put into operation with the Zionist' militias' 'Plan Dalet' in March 1948

“You will move to State Dalet, for an operative implementation of Plan Dalet . . . the villages which you will capture, cleanse or destroy will be decided according to consultation with your advisors on Arab affairs and the intelligence officers.” Orders to Carmeli Brigade in Zvi Sinai (ed), The Carmeli Brigade in the War of Independence, p29

Near the village was the site of a massacre by the Arab Legion against a civilian Jewish bus convoy on December 14, 1947 following the partition of Palestine. Fourteen Jews were killed on the road from Petah-Tikva to Ben Shemen. Two British citizens who tried to intervene were wounded. The Arab Legion claimed that a member of the convoy had carried out a grenade attack the previous night on the Arab Legion camp. This was one of the first confirmed involvements of the Arab Legion in attacks on Jews in Palestine (occurring within the territory alloted to the Arab state under the partition plan). The Arab Legion (Al-jaish Al-arabi) was Transjordans and later on also Jordans regular army. ... Map showing the UN Partition Plan. ... Petah-Tikva (פתח-תקוה, also transliterated as Petach Tikva, Petaḥ Tiqwa or Petach Tiqwa) is a city in the west of the Center District of Israel Israel, north-east of Tel Aviv. ... Map of the territory under the British Mandate of Palestine. ...

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Beit-Nabala

On February 22, 1948, as the conflict over the coming partition of Palestine grew, three car bombs arranged by Arab irregulars exploded on Ben Yehuda Street killing 52 Jewish civilians and leaving 123 injured.

1948 Ben Yehuda Street Bombing
Location Ben Yehuda Street, Jerusalem
Date February 22, 1948
Attack type car bombs
Deaths 58
Injured 123

Two British deserters (Eddie Brown, a police captain who claimed that the Irgun had killed his brother, and Peter Madison, an army corporal) were involved in the attack, having been promised pay by Abd al-Kader al-Husseini, who was the commander of the Holy War Army forces in the area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Yehuda_Street_Bombing

The Hebron Massacre refers to the mass murder of sixty-seven Jews on 23 and 24 August 1929 in Hebron, then part of the British Mandate of Palestine, by Arabs incited to violence by false rumors that Jews were massacring Arabs[1] in Jerusalem and seizing control of Muslim holy places. This massacre, together with that of Safed, sent shock waves through Jewish communities in Palestine and across the world.

The survivors were forced to flee Hebron, and their property was seized by Arab residents and occupied until after the Six Day War of 1967.[2][3] It also led to the re-organization and development of the Jewish paramilitary organization, the Haganah, which later became the nucleus of the Israel Defense Forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Well, that's clearly bullshit, although there will be power struggles within it.

So, your Haaretz article is the truth, but mine is bullshit?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

There's no 'titanic military-industrial power standing behind Hamas’s sloganeering, and it's not as though Palestine’s awesome military might —its legions of soldiers, armored and mechanized infantry divisions, flotillas of bombers, and perhaps even a fleet of some kind — stands ready to rain ruin and devastation down on an innocent and practically defenseless Israel is it?

Repeat after me:

Mah....moud.....Ah....med.....in....e......jad......

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Given that their 'electoral choice' has a rhetoric that is more strident than the Nazis, what would you expect to happen?

Given that Israel previously elected actual fascists (and terrorists) Begin and Shamir and nobody blinked?

.... clearly I'd expect almost total international backing for Israel to do whatever the fuck it likes, as usual.

 

[Spion]

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Beit-Nabala

On February 22, 1948, as the conflict over the coming partition of Palestine grew, three car bombs arranged by Arab irregulars exploded on Ben Yehuda Street killing 52 Jewish civilians and leaving 123 injured.]

February 1948. How many Arab villages had been cleansed by then? 100 maybe of the eventual 500 plus total

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

A riot. Not a clearly devised plan over decades that is proven by documentary evidence.