Israel in coordinated missile attacks on Gaza

[likesfish]

quassam unguided so bit of a lottery where it ends up
the Idf have the latest in precision death tech so more of a certainty if your targeted.

 

[frogwoman]

I think there are different factors.
WRT the poverty rate in the state of Israel, I think it's fare to put at least part of the blame on the shift, under Fat Bennie, from a European-model welfare system to a US-model system, which kicked a whole stratum of low-paid Israeli workers below the poverty line. That can't be addressed without re-visiting the political choices that were made.
WRT to the rampaging, war, even on the scale in Gaza, generates business and profits. If not for companies like IMI, then for their American friends at Lockheed and general Dynamics.

those are good points.

but israel's policies mean that much of its young skilled workforce is leaving in disgust, or to evade military service, and they also exclude much of the population (the palestinians and to a lesser extent those with israeli citizenship) from being able to contribute productively to the economy and to israeli society - if they even want to ... apart from arms, it is also deterring foreign investment, regardless of what incentives israel can give - which i'm sure it can give quite a lot, but even so...!

 

[Spion]

The Israelis glorify the mortars they made and used to attack Arab neighbourhoods and public places http://www.davidpride.com/Israel/Givati_07.htm

When Palestinians make rockets to respond to a siege of people driven from their homes by ethnic cleansing they are 'terrorists' and 100s of people are killed

It's a twisted world

 

[camouflage]

I think there are different factors.
WRT the poverty rate in the state of Israel, I think it's fare to put at least part of the blame on the shift, under Fat Bennie, from a European-model welfare system to a US-model system, which kicked a whole stratum of low-paid Israeli workers below the poverty line. That can't be addressed without re-visiting the political choices that were made.
WRT to the rampaging, war, even on the scale in Gaza, generates business and profits. If not for companies like IMI, then for their American friends at Lockheed and general Dynamics.

I read somewhere that the massive influx of Russian jews (and people claiming to have once sat outside a synagog) in the 90s is also involved here... for one thing the value of Palestinian labour has been displaced, as were the living places of many more to house the new Russian working class. Now Isreal needs it's Palestinians less and fielding it's new range of hardy Russian settlers, an even more Wild West attitude toward the 'injuns'.

 

[RhymnRzn]

Maybe a deliberate memory loss to prevent himself from becoming stark-raving-insane.
Peres knows why the Gazans fire rockets because he knows that the towns of Ashkelon, Ashdod, and Sderot are built on the ruins of former villages and towns that the Palestinians who survived the ethnic cleansing of 1948 used to live in. He knows who destroyed them, who gave the orders, how many were massacred (males over 12). It's these Palestinians - at least those who survived - who now live with their descendents in Gaza strip. 61 years ago these massacres and ethnic cleansing happened. These are undeniable.

hey i was just reading some about Ashdod on wikipedia a couple hours ago!

 

[Barking_Mad]

British Embassy apparently entered by "protesters" in Tehran.

 

[DexterTCN]

Any decent left approach has to acknowledge the Iranian Hamas missiles on Siderot etc, no matter how 'ineffective they are, they are just as unacceptable as a terror weapon' as F15's paid for by the U.S..

Matthew 7-5

Matthew, of course, would have been shot in the head. And his kids.

After having been starved and isolated.

Can I hold my breath until the next massive suicide bombing somewhere else around the world in retaliation?

 

[DexterTCN]

I see on the BBC that apparently buildings built with foreign aid have been targeted and destroyed.

I'll bet they weren't built with American aid.

 

[Aldebaran]

Islam is not a kind religion, and like the others it's not averse to exploiting the hardships suffered by populations to promote itself and its agenda (usually supreme dominion over all mankind). But I don't want to threadjack this important thread.

Permit me to say you showed by this your absolute ignorance about Islam.
Which is not something new for me to encounter, it would be a something of a positive sign in Western education about the mater if it was otherwise, in fact.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

israel's gone mad.
stark. raving. insane.
do these people live on the same planet as everyone else?

They apparently live on the same planet as the USA, their sponsor. Not on ours, though.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

yes you are probably right ..
p.s. you are aware it is alleged that israeli secretly supported hamas as an alternative to plo? a nasty cycnical tactic that has backfired though maybe it has not??? .. for hamas has nothing but kassam ( until iran gets the bomb) .. so maybe isreal is happy with hamas? a few ethipopian kids die in some shitty village ( like america are with al quida) they can cope with ..

It is widely known Hamas is a good as an Israely construction to undermine the PLO. Divide and conquer, old techinique and as stupid and logically backfiring as it always was.
History leaves humanity blind because humanity reinvents itself under the delusion that it is writing new chapters.

Your trick to bring the spin doctor's scare mongering about "iran gets the bomb" thus trying desperately to create link between hamas - BOMB Israel - Iran is well noted. (Don't know what ethiopian kids have to do with it, though.)

salaam

 

[Aldebaran]

I guess in a sense it's a problem about the enforceability of international law.

It is that problem which is at the core of it, like so many times.

salaam.

 

[teqniq]

Right now I'd settle for some of the EU members (including the UK) withdrawing their diplomatic missions from the state of Israel and expelling the state of Israel's diplomats from their nations.

Fat chance. But I have been hoping for something along the same lines. It seems to me to be the only way forward.

E2A I'd like to add to that the freezing of assets wholy or part-owned by Israeli corprorations or individuals trading or operating in EU countries would likely make a big difference. Money talks, after all.

 

[Aldebaran]

The events in Gaza are indeed terrible, and should be comdemned forcefully, but they are not the only atrocities happening around the world, indeed five million souls have died in the Congo. then we have Darfur: I haven't noticed a STWC protest around that, ah, but they will say 'we (the UK) are not involved , no and we are 'not involved' in the events in Palestine. It seems to me the politics of the left in the UK is now dominated by Middle Eastern causes and yes, its seemingly willingly find itself with such progressive allies as offshoots of the Muslim Brotherhood. I'm just waiting for the 'we are all Hamas, placards to appear, an organisation which has just announced crucifixion to be allowed in Gaza and which has close links with the extremists in Iran, etc.


Any decent left approach has to acknowledge the Iranian Hamas missiles on Siderot etc, no matter how 'ineffective they are, they are just as unacceptable as a terror weapon' as F15's paid for by the U.S. On the SU blog all sorts of moral equilvalence 'arguments are being hoisted,

But its unlikely they will.....

I don't even want to waste time on a response to this.
Did you perform your daily kissing and worshipping of the US flag already, because if not, your life will become miserable of regret.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

Another thing that puzzles me is why mujahideen from across the Arab world don't come to the Palestinians' defence. They did in Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia etc.

Why do you think not even the most necessaty supplies can get in?
Why do you think a ship with emergy help gets shot at in international waters by the Israelis.
European politicians who wanted to visit Palestine got refused entrance, journalist who wanted to report got murdered by Israel.
You really don't believe any outsider looking like an Arab would get in this effectively sealed huge prison?

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

Different reasons.
IMHO one of the reasons (besides the state of Israel's tight policing of entry to and exit from the occupied territories) that the Mujahs haven't shown up there in any numbers is because even though HAMAS are overtly Islamic in motivation , the Palestinian people still follow a secular turn of mind, a little similar to the Turks. They may be brother and sister Muslims, but they're not amenable to the lure of Wahhabism (yet).

Palestinians aren't all that secular and so are not the Turkish people either.
It has less to do with that than with getting the needed weaponry smuggled in together with the men. If you have leaks in a border, you can get anywhere once inside. Do yu see leaks in the sealed of prison that is supposed to be Palestine?

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

I had a blogaddress of someone in Palestine but don't find the link right now. Will bring it tomorow. (well, later today)

salaam.

 

[goebfwai]

CNN Interview with former Georgia congresswoman Cynthia McKinney who was in Boat Rammed by Israeli Warship, Over International Waters
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dL_B4vSaYGw

 

[TomUS]

Originally Posted by November:
Islam is not a kind religion, and like the others it's not averse to exploiting the hardships suffered by populations to promote itself and its agenda (usually supreme dominion over all mankind).

Permit me to say you showed by this your absolute ignorance about Islam.
salaam.

He shows extensive knowledge about Islam. Islam is not a kind religion at all, nor is xianity or judism or most of the others. It is brutal & promotes ignorance & superstition & obedience. It's harmful BS being spewed by those who get something from it. You are indoctrinated I think & the indoctrination is a large part of the problem.

 

[Zachor]

He shows extensive knowledge about Islam. Islam is not a kind religion at all, nor is xianity or judism or most of the others. It is brutal & promotes ignorance & superstition & obedience. It's harmful BS being spewed by those who get something from it. You are indoctrinated I think & the indoctrination is a large part of the problem.

I think the extremes of all religions have the problems of the promotion of ignorance.

 

[TAE]

When ANY ideology (which claims to be in the interest of humanity) is placed above the wellbeing of fellow humans, something has gone wrong.

 

[TAE]

CNN Interview with former Georgia congresswoman Cynthia McKinney who was in Boat Rammed by Israeli Warship, Over International Waters
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dL_B4vSaYGw

Oh, Georigia, US !

Good interview, glad it went out on CNN.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Israel has rejected international calls for a 48-hour truce in the Gaza Strip to allow in humanitarian aid, says a government spokesman.

Palestinian officials say about 374 Palestinians have died in Israeli air strikes since Saturday; four Israelis have been killed by rockets fired from Gaza, which is under Hamas control.

BBC

 

[Bernie Gunther]

What is the doctrine of proportionality?

The doctrine originated with the 1907 Hague Conventions, which govern the laws of war, and was later codified in Article 49 of the International Law Commission's 1980 Draft Articles on State Responsibility (PDF). The doctrine is also referred to indirectly in the 1977 Additional Protocols of the Geneva Conventions. Regardless of whether states are party to the treaties above, experts say the principle is part of what is known as customary international law. According to the doctrine, a state is legally allowed to unilaterally defend itself and right a wrong provided the response is proportional to the injury suffered. The response must also be immediate and necessary, refrain from targeting civilians, and require only enough force to reinstate the status quo ante.

source

 

[ViolentPanda]

I read somewhere that the massive influx of Russian jews (and people claiming to have once sat outside a synagog)...

Many a true word is spoken in jest.

...in the 90s is also involved here... for one thing the value of Palestinian labour has been displaced, as were the living places of many more to house the new Russian working class. Now Isreal needs it's Palestinians less and fielding it's new range of hardy Russian settlers, an even more Wild West attitude toward the 'injuns'.

True, but it's also a factor in the general torpor of the economy. Russians expect and demand higher wages than Palestinian day-labour agencies.

 

[Aldebaran]

He shows extensive knowledge about Islam. Islam is not a kind religion at all, nor is xianity or judism or most of the others. It is brutal & promotes ignorance & superstition & obedience. It's harmful BS being spewed by those who get something from it. You are indoctrinated I think & the indoctrination is a large part of the problem.

If anyone shows indoctrination and probably partially due to self-indoctrination) it is the poster I replied to, and you.

But let's not ruin this thread with non-related discussion. If you would want to discuss Islam and your views on it, please open a thread.

salaam.

 

[Sasaferrato]

BBC

Is it a football match?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Well like some of the reports you posted say Israel has broken International maritime laws, however there not the only laws Israel repeatedly ignores so why would they give a shit about this one, especially when by breaking it they can contribute to the suffering of the people of Gaza!

Simple really, stop firing rockets and Israel will stop sending bombers.

 

[Zachor]

Simple really, stop firing rockets and Israel will stop sending bombers.

Thats right. Those who complain rightly about the economic conditions of the Gazan fail to recognise that as long as Israel was not being attacked then the borders were open. No matter how many times it is said sadly the Leftists on here will not recognise the truth that the ultimate cause of the Palestinians current misery is Hamas.

Sadly the poor misguided Palestinians went an elected the Middle East version of the Kray Twins and the Richardsons combined and then some.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

If you want to understand why Likud and groups aligned to it never want to do deals with the Palestinians unless they're absolutely forced to, and why the present government want to prevent a ceasefire and keep hammering the population of Gaza with air strikes while embargoing food, medicines and so on, then the logic is laid out clearly here by the founder of the neo-fascist tendency in Israeli politics.

The inhabitants fought the white settlers not out of fear that they might be expropriated, but simply because there has never been an indigenous inhabitant anywhere or at any time who has ever accepted the settlement of others in his country. Any native people – its all the same whether they are civilized or savage – views their country as their national home, of which they will always be the complete masters. They will not voluntarily allow, not only a new master, but even a new partner. And so it is for the Arabs. Compromisers in our midst attempt to convince us that the Arabs are some kind of fools who can be tricked by a softened formulation of our goals, or a tribe of money grubbers who will abandon their birth right to Palestine for cultural and economic gains. I flatly reject this assessment of the Palestinian Arabs. Culturally they are 500 years behind us, spiritually they do not have our endurance or our strength of will, but this exhausts all of the internal differences. We can talk as much as we want about our good intentions; but they understand as well as we what is not good for them. They look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux looked upon his prairie. To think that the Arabs will voluntarily consent to the realization of Zionism in return for the cultural and economic benefits we can bestow on them is infantile.

and

Two brief remarks: In the first place, if anyone objects that this point of view is immoral, I answer: It is not true; either Zionism is moral and just or it is immoral and unjust. But that is a question that we should have settled before we became Zionists. Actually we have settled that question, and in the affirmative.

We hold that Zionism is moral and just. And since it is moral and just, justice must be done, no matter whether Joseph or Simon or Ivan or Achmet agree with it or not.

There is no other morality.

All this does not mean that any kind of agreement is impossible, only a voluntary agreement is impossible. As long as there is a spark of hope that they can get rid of us, they will not sell these hopes, not for any kind of sweet words or tasty morsels, because they are not a rabble but a nation, perhaps somewhat tattered, but still living. A living people makes such enormous concessions on such fateful questions only when there is no hope left. Only when not a single breach is visible in the iron wall, only then do extreme groups lose their sway, and influence transfers to moderate groups. Only then would these moderate groups come to us with proposals for mutual concessions. And only then will moderates offer suggestions for compromise on practical questions like a guarantee against expulsion, or equality and national autonomy.

I am optimistic that they will indeed be granted satisfactory assurances and that both peoples, like good neighbors, can then live in peace. But the only path to such an agreement is the iron wall, that is to say the strengthening in Palestine of a government without any kind of Arab influence, that is to say one against which the Arabs will fight. In other words, for us the only path to an agreement in the future is an absolute refusal of any attempts at an agreement now.

source