Israel in coordinated missile attacks on Gaza

[ViolentPanda]

Come again?

There are just so many offensive possible answers to that.

 

[frogwoman]

No.

On the 5pm news on Radio 4, a member of the Knesset was expounding on how HAMAS and the Gazans celebrate every Palestinian death, what with those victims being "martyrs".
The amount of "T.W.A.T." rhetoric being deployed by the state of Israel to justify wholesale murder is absolutely nauseating.

The irony is that we have a whole fucking day (tisha b'av) in the Jewish calendar set aside for martyrs.

 

[durruti02]

Support for Hamas would evaporate if Israel actually made any concessions to relieve the awful suffering the siege enforces on Gazans. Hamas only have any purchase because they are an extreme solution to an extreme situation.

yes you are probably right ..
p.s. you are aware it is alleged that israeli secretly supported hamas as an alternative to plo? a nasty cycnical tactic that has backfired though maybe it has not??? .. for hamas has nothing but kassam ( until iran gets the bomb) .. so maybe isreal is happy with hamas? a few ethipopian kids die in some shitty village ( like america are with al quida) they can cope with ..

 

[durruti02]

That's so vague, I can't really respond to it directly.

For the record, if I was there I'd argue that what are needed is mass demonstrations and marches to the border posts and shame Israel in front of the world's TV cameras to open the gates and let Gazans move freely and gain access to food, trade, jobs, markets and supplies. Hamas will not or cannot contemplete this and they need to be removed - but only by organisations of ordinary Gazans committed to mass action.

On the Isareli side socialists should be arguing for soldiers to disobey orders and not attack Gaza, and for Israeli workers to organise supplies to relieve the suffering there.

But at the same time Gaza has to defend itself militarily and while the rockets are often a relatively inneffective means of doing so, I will not condemn a besieged people for doing anything that can cause the enemy to pay a price for its aggression.

^^^ totally agree until last para .. whiole i also will not condemn the use of violence i am cycnical as to hamas's use of violence .. i do not see it as unweighted as you

 

[Spion]

but i do understand "the cause of the violence - structural and actual" as it relates to the palestinians .. my point over and over to you is that you do not ask this question of the israeli violence ..

Israeli violence is based on defending and consolidating land and property stolen through ethnic cleansing. It is justified by appeals to fears of terrorism/anti-semitism.

But Palestinians and their politicians are not pre-war Germany. They are not the equivalent of one of the largest and most industrialised countries of its time. They are a scattered people with a hopelessly undeveloped economy and polity that have been shoved from pillar to post in several episodes of ethnic cleansing over the course of 60 years.

They need some justice.

 

[ViolentPanda]

vp is wrong on what 'picking up fag ends means'

Not this side of the river!

 

[Spion]

yes you are probably right ..
p.s. you are aware it is alleged that israeli secretly supported hamas as an alternative to plo? a nasty cycnical tactic that has backfired though maybe it has not??? .. for hamas has nothing but kassam ( until iran gets the bomb) .. so maybe isreal is happy with hamas? a few ethipopian kids die in some shitty village ( like america are with al quida) they can cope with ..

I think - and it certainly seems plausible - that Israel wants to make life so hellish in Gaza that Palestinians will just give up their historical and current craving for justice and recompense and jsut drift away, unable to make a life there. And having Hamas as a bogeyman works very well for them in that regard

 

[frogwoman]

yep agree there.

 

[diego]

Sorry, you believe you have "fucked" me?
I "fucked" myself, which is why I admitted as much and apologised for it in public.
You, had nothing to do with it.

No, of course you're not, which leaves...well...stupidity, doesn't it?

Ah, "the heat of the moment". Of course.

I don't need your permission for that, thanks all the same.

"Arabs" and "Christians", eh? All, what, 8-10% of them, and they're so prominent in your consideration that you only remembered them when it became convenient for you to use as a fig-leaf for your utterances during "the heat of the moment". How thrilling for them.

Funny, that.
I was thinking much the same thing about your gloating.


Tomorrow I shall awake, unembarrassed, because I was happy to hold my hands up and say "I was wrong" and apologise, whereas tomorrow you shall awake and still be the ungracious person who regularly gets "pwned" by just about every poster on Urban.

So gloat away. After all, it's SO rare you get the opportunity, isn't it?

Oh give it up, you've been fucked by yourself indeed, that was exactly what I meant, sorry I didn't clarify it for you.

Perhaps as according to you I get "pwned" by every poster in your little gang or so you like to believe, but like I said when its an arrogant cunt like yourself it really overshadows anything by the likes of me.

Live with it. But tell you what if you want to have the childish last word then go on.

 

[ViolentPanda]

yes you are probably right ..
p.s. you are aware it is alleged that israeli secretly supported hamas as an alternative to plo? a nasty cycnical tactic that has backfired though maybe it has not??? .. for hamas has nothing but kassam ( until iran gets the bomb) .. so maybe isreal is happy with hamas? a few ethipopian kids die in some shitty village ( like america are with al quida) they can cope with ..

1) Shin Bet didn't "support" HAMAS, they conspired to create it as an oppositional counterweight to FATAH.

2) If you truly believe that any regime outside of, possibly, a nuclear Libya (now very unlikely) or an extremely destabilised Pakistan would give HAMAS (or any other terrorist organisation) a nuclear weapon, then you've been reading too much Tom Clancy, and mistake the playing of "the great game" (supplying Hezbollah, arming Iraqi Shi'ites etc) with insanity.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oh give it up, you've been fucked by yourself indeed, that was exactly what I meant, sorry I didn't clarify it for you.

Another example of "the heat of the moment", eh?

Perhaps as according to you I get "pwned" by every poster in your little gang or so you like to believe, but like I said when its an arrogant cunt like yourself it really overshadows anything by the likes of me.

Of course it does.

Oh, and the "little gang" comment?
Odd how many people pull that one out of the bag when more than one poster points out that they're a fuckwit.

Live with it. But tell you what if you want to have the childish last word then go on.

Again you assume I need your permission to do what I wish.
How sweet!

 

[durruti02]

Not this side of the river!

oh well .. thats why i stay this side .. it can get very complicated

funny it does turn up as a phrase much used on the internet! is it uncommon? ( well 'common' but unusual??) i thought every one used it! :O

http://everything2.com/e2node/picking%20up%20fag-ends.

 

[belboid]

except, see my reply to frogman, if as i believe hamas are cyncial parasites who use a strategy of tension to manintain their support

hamas use a strategy of tension? arse about face, they are the result of a strategy of tension, one that backfired on israel.

You almost seem to be saying they should one-sidedly cease all violence, no matter what israel does. that's an obvious non-starter, for bloody good reasons.

 

[durruti02]

1) Shin Bet didn't "support" HAMAS, they conspired to create it as an oppositional counterweight to FATAH.

2) If you truly believe that any regime outside of, possibly, a nuclear Libya (now very unlikely) or an extremely destabilised Pakistan would give HAMAS (or any other terrorist organisation) a nuclear weapon, then you've been reading too much Tom Clancy, and mistake the playing of "the great game" (supplying Hezbollah, arming Iraqi Shi'ites etc) with insanity.

1) words but ok
2) iran? no?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think - and it certainly seems plausible - that Israel wants to make life so hellish in Gaza that Palestinians will just give up their historical and current craving for justice and recompense and jsut drift away, unable to make a life there. And having Hamas as a bogeyman works very well for them in that regard

It's extremely naive of them if they do believe that such a thing will happen. In fact it's likely that this will just harden the Gazans further against any approaches or solutions originating from the state of Israel, or indeed from any of the state of Israel's "sponsors".

 

[durruti02]

hamas use a strategy of tension? arse about face, they are the result of a strategy of tension, one that backfired on israel.

You almost seem to be saying they should one-sidedly cease all violence, no matter what israel does. that's an obvious non-starter, for bloody good reasons.

talking of picking up fag ends!

 

[ViolentPanda]

1) words but ok

There's a big difference between supporting a pre-existing organisation that already has a particular ideology and set of practices, and actually assisting in the creation of that organisation.

 

[durruti02]

There's a big difference between supporting a pre-existing organisation that already has a particular ideology and set of practices, and actually assisting in the creation of that organisation.

yep fair play

 

[durruti02]

idiotic to defend yourself with your only weapons? Of course they should be able to get weapons that will strike a more useful target, so we should be campaigning for our government to send them decent air fighters, air-to-air missiles etc, as well as raising money ourselves I guess.

fuck me i missed this! jesus this is the stupidest thing i have seen said so far .. in a world that would do such a thing ( send gear like this to the palestinians or hamas?? lol ) the situation would not exist in the first place would it .. israel only exists as it does due to it's position in US/UK capitalism/imperialism

 

[belboid]

well, duh. so what was your point? you seem to be trying to have it bothy ways. you know israel is the main aggressor, yet are unwilling to admit that they should be opposed by whosoever the palestinians, of the gaza in particular, see fit. pure liberalism

 

[belboid]

talking of picking up fag ends!

talking of avoiding the issue with stupid one liners...

 

[ViolentPanda]

fuck me i missed this! jesus this is the stupidest thing i have seen said so far ..

No more stupid than the point he was addressing, to be fair.

...in a world that would do such a thing ( send gear like this to the palestinians or hamas?? lol ) the situation would not exist in the first place would it .. israel only exists as it does due to it's position in US/UK capitalism/imperialism

The state of Israel exists in it's current form due to those influences, true, but that isn't a reason not to wish a fair fight on the IDF and IAF. It's hardly as if that wish is going to be granted by the armaments fairy, is it?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I guess in a sense it's a problem about the enforceability of international law.

After all, the Israeli state is blatantly violating the Geneva Conventions and committing flagrant crimes against humanity, and it has done this for years.

So what do you do about what amounts to a criminal state? Especially one that has friends on the Security Council who can always be relied upon to prevent any effective international sanctions or other action to address Israel's crimes?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I guess in a sense it's a problem about the enforceability of international law.

After all, the Israeli state is blatantly violating the Geneva Conventions and committing flagrant crimes against humanity, and it has done this for years.

So what do you do about what amounts to a criminal state? Especially one that has friends on the Security Council who can always be relied upon to prevent any effective international sanctions or other action to address Israel's crimes?

Right now I'd settle for some of the EU members (including the UK) withdrawing their diplomatic missions from the state of Israel and expelling the state of Israel's diplomats from their nations.

 

[STFC]

hamas use a strategy of tension? arse about face, they are the result of a strategy of tension, one that backfired on israel.

You almost seem to be saying they should one-sidedly cease all violence, no matter what israel does. that's an obvious non-starter, for bloody good reasons.

But what do they (Hamas) hope to achieve with their rocket attacks? It's like taking a peashooter along to a fight against a bloke with an Uzi. They clearly know they can't beat Israel using force, as Israel has far superior firepower. Is their strategy to provoke Israel into killing as many Palestinians as it can so the 'international community' will exert pressure on Israel to find a peaceful solution?

 

[frogwoman]

Given that many of the zionist state's diplomats and political leaders are unable to travel to much of the EU (including the UK) anyway because of warrants for their arrest it couldn't be too much of a step from that to imposing a blanket travel ban in many EU countries.

 

[treelover]

The events in Gaza are indeed terrible, and should be comdemned forcefully, but they are not the only atrocities happening around the world, indeed five million souls have died in the Congo. then we have Darfur: I haven't noticed a STWC protest around that, ah, but they will say 'we (the UK) are not involved , no and we are 'not involved' in the events in Palestine. It seems to me the politics of the left in the UK is now dominated by Middle Eastern causes and yes, its seemingly willingly find itself with such progressive allies as offshoots of the Muslim Brotherhood. I'm just waiting for the 'we are all Hamas, placards to appear, an organisation which has just announced crucifixion to be allowed in Gaza and which has close links with the extremists in Iran, etc.


Any decent left approach has to acknowledge the Iranian Hamas missiles on Siderot etc, no matter how 'ineffective they are, they are just as unacceptable as a terror weapon' as F15's paid for by the U.S. On the SU blog all sorts of moral equilvalence 'arguments are being hoisted,

But its unlikely they will.....

 

[tangentlama]

Oh give it up, you've been fucked by yourself indeed, that was exactly what I meant, sorry I didn't clarify it for you.

Perhaps as according to you I get "pwned" by every poster in your little gang or so you like to believe, but like I said when its an arrogant cunt like yourself it really overshadows anything by the likes of me.

Live with it. But tell you what if you want to have the childish last word then go on.

VP does not need to waste his time debating with you.
There are more important things here to discuss than your disgusting attitudes/posts, diego.

 

[Spion]

But what do they (Hamas) hope to achieve with their rocket attacks? It's like taking a peashooter along to a fight against a bloke with an Uzi. They clearly know they can't beat Israel using force, as Israel has far superior firepower. Is their strategy to provoke Israel into killing as many Palestinians as it can so the 'international community' will exert pressure on Israel to find a peaceful solution?

This \/\/\/\/

The rockets (and on other occasions the suicide bombs) are a response to being besieged in Gaza, a territory of 1.5m people, and being given no access to the outside world via land, sea or air. The rockets are also a response to Israeli raids and incursions which say - to Israel and to Gazans - "Someone will respond to the death and destructiuon Israel dishes out. There is a cost." It also keeps the issue on the world's news agenda.

You cannot understand the rocket attacks without understanding that the cause of the violence - structural and actual - is Israel's siege and blockade of Gaza.

 

[tangentlama]

The events in Gaza are indeed terrible, and should be comdemned forcefully, but they are not the only atrocities happening around the world, indeed five million souls have died in the Congo. then we have Darfur: I haven't noticed a STWC protest around that, ah, but they will say 'we (the UK) are not involved , no and we are 'not involved' in the events in Palestine. It seems to me the politics of the left in the UK is now dominated by Middle Eastern causes and yes, its seemingly willingly find itself with such progressive allies as offshoots of the Muslim Brotherhood. I'm just waiting for the 'we are all Hamas, placards to appear, an organisation which has just announced crucifixion to be allowed in Gaza and which has close links with the extremists in Iran, etc.

You are spreading far-right wing propaganda that is designed to raise a spectre of fear in Christians and Jews and demonise Islam and dehumanise those who practise Islam.

Also you are trying to say we cannot speak out about the plight of Palestinians unless we have acknowledged all other atrocities around the world. This is just a tactic from you to attempt to diminish the outcry you see before you.

Disgraceful.

Any decent left approach has to acknowledge the Iranian Hamas missiles on Siderot etc, no matter how 'ineffective they are, they are just as unacceptable as a terror weapon' as F15's paid for by the U.S. On the SU blog all sorts of moral equilvalence 'arguments are being hoisted,

But its unlikely they will.....

A 'decent left approach' will not be coming from a propagator of right-wing lies, such as you are. It will come from the left itself and not from it's right-wing critic (you). Furthermore, a DECENT APPROACH can come from any political perspective. It does not matter whether is left or right on the artificial political spectrum as long as it is an approach which takes into consideration the 61+ year plight of these people who were driven out from their homes and who have 2, maybe 3 generations of descendents living in refugee camps and who continue to live without ANY JUSTICE or restitution for the wrongs which were done to them in order to free up living space for the future residents (who were shipped in the 1950s) of the Israeli state.

It is unlikely that you are able to judge DECENCE (truth, moral behaviour practises)from INDECENT (lies, immoral behaviour practises), given your post here.