Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
diego: another pissy little ant to be stamped on. Fridge Magnet - get your jackboots on! 
Israel in coordinated missile attacks on Gaza
- Thread starter Fez909
- Start date
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
I have no idea what you are talking about here. You seem to be pulling towns/cities, dates and 'arab or jew' out of an imaginary hat.
I still have no idea what you are talking about. Who has said we should begin the 'start [of] the conflict in 1948'? The latest Israeli press-drive, gathered in the aftermath of this Solid Lead onslaught by Israeli military said something along the lines of 'let's not begin with 1948, but with 2005 and the pullout of our troops/settlers from Gaza'durruti02 said:
Where are you getting this Mickey-mouse history of Israel-Palestine from?durruti02 said:
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
It's been quite well known for a while. iirc I think John Ging of UNWRA in the Palestinian occupied territories has previously and numerously referred to the blockade even as collective punishment, which is illegal under international, so one would assume that if a blockade denying fuel, food and essential medical supplies to the whole of the Gaza strip amounts to an illegal act of collective punishment, then it should pretty much go without saying that air raids on Gaza (as someone from the Free Gaza Movement and others have pointed out in media interviews - it's a pretty densely populated area, with houses and schools and clinics and so on smack bang next to the 'target' police stations and other buildings) so it's pretty clear that there are going to be civilian casualties, and such blatant disregard for such civilian casualties amounts to their being collectively punished... and for what, btw, police officers are police officers, they're not random rogue 'fighters' launching rocket attacks.
Plus UN staff and trainees have been among the dead, eight of them, as I read last night, don't know whether the UN death toll has risen as well.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
please do not put words in my mouth . i did not say if hamas stop attacks they are at the table .. i said it makes no sense for them to allow attacks to continue .. and i asked why they had NOT stopped attacks for they did not ..
.. so and ask yourself why .. the ONLY conclusion i can make is that it suits Hamas this way .. they only came to power due to israeli intransegence and it seems it suits both sides just fine .. israel has a pretty toothless bogie man and hamas an enemy that must be destroyed .. arafat and the plo could not do it so they and allah are all that is left
yes it WILL push more people toward hamas sadly .. maybe some will realise the impossibility of sucess and try to do something else .. hamas will attack them too and they will do nothing or get out at the first opportunity
don't be so childish .. you really want a solution, you really want a change things then you try to understand why people behave how they do ..but you do not seem to want to know .. and as you do not seem want to know or understand then the status quo carries on and the massacre in gaza continues .. fool
you are picking up fag ends .. this was a reply to spion
Spion
I hear ya
Then teach me, O Wise One
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
He's saying you're grasping at straws, what with his argument being water-tight.
At least in his own, obviously deluded, mind.
diego: another pissy little ant to be stamped on. Fridge Magnet - get your jackboots on!
"Oh Fridge Magnet please get your jackboots on oh please oh please".
Is this what you PM to the mods JR you tosser? Is this another thing that gives you a hard on?
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
Thanks for the translation, VP.
He shows no historical understanding as he makes these grand pronouncements.
Oh I'm Anti-zionist alright, but certainly not anti-semite, as techinically that would mean I am also anti-arab, but dicks like you obviously don't know that.
And thanks for confirming you suffer from tourettes it was really pretty obvious coz thats all you can come up with when you are pissed off at other people's opinion's and accuse them of being anti-jew.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Mmm....I envisage imminent exit visas for Diego.....
No kidding, Sky News were just reporting that a Gaza hospital was being evacuated due to Israeli threats of bombardment.
no comment/abstain
In common english, anti-semite means anti-jewish, no matter what the literal meaning of the word ("against decendents of shem") might be; in the same way that apocalypse means 'utter destruction' in common english yet literally means revelation (it's a greek word).
Sky News are also reporting on the protests outside the Israeli embassy in London:
Huge Demo Outside Israeli Embassy
Apparently a big demo is planned for Saturday to take place in Trafalgar Square.
Huge Demo Outside Israeli Embassy
Apparently a big demo is planned for Saturday to take place in Trafalgar Square.
An article in Haraatz, ‘Ten ways Israel keeps Hamas afloat’, looks at how Israel is ultimately responsible for Hamas’ popularity, for example:
The implication being that stopping rocket attacks would in the broader scheme be against the strategic aims of Israel.
Another article on a similar theme, ‘Is Israel deliberately strengthening Hamas?’:
The implication being that stopping rocket attacks would in the broader scheme be against the strategic aims of Israel.
Another article on a similar theme, ‘Is Israel deliberately strengthening Hamas?’:
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
Interesting article in the Independent:
"Johann Hari: The true story behind this war is not the one Israel is telling
...There will now be a war over the story of this war. The Israeli government says, "We withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and in return we got Hamas and Qassam rockets being rained on our cities. Sixteen civilians have been murdered. How many more are we supposed to sacrifice?" It is a plausible narrative, and there are shards of truth in it, but it is also filled with holes. If we want to understand the reality and really stop the rockets, we need to rewind a few years and view the run-up to this war dispassionately.
The Israeli government did indeed withdraw from the Gaza Strip in 2005 – in order to be able to intensify control of the West Bank. Ariel Sharon's senior adviser, Dov Weisglass, was unequivocal about this, explaining: "The disengagement [from Gaza]... is necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians... this whole package that is called the Palestinian state has been removed from our agenda indefinitely."
Ordinary Palestinians were horrified by this, and by the fetid corruption of their own Fatah leaders, so they voted for Hamas. It certainly wouldn't have been my choice – an Islamist party is antithetical to all my convictions - but we have to be honest. It was a free and democratic election, and it was not a rejection of a two-state solution. The most detailed polling of Palestinians, by the University of Maryland, found that 72 per cent want a two-state solution on the 1967 borders, while fewer than 20 per cent want to reclaim the whole of historic Palestine. So, partly in response to this pressure, Hamas offered Israel a long, long ceasefire and a de facto acceptance of two states, if only Israel would return to its legal borders.
Rather than seize this opportunity and test Hamas's sincerity, the Israeli government reacted by punishing the entire civilian population. It announced that it was blockading the Gaza Strip in order to "pressure" its people to reverse the democratic process...
It was in this context – under a collective punishment designed to topple a democracy – that some forces within Gaza did something immoral: they fired Qassam rockets indiscriminately at Israeli cities. These rockets have killed 16 Israeli citizens. This is abhorrent: targeting civilians is always murder. But it is hypocritical for the Israeli government to claim now to speak out for the safety of civilians when it has been terrorising civilians as a matter of state policy.
The American and European governments are responding with a lop-sidedness that ignores these realities. They say that Israel cannot be expected to negotiate while under rocket fire, but they demand that the Palestinians do so under siege in Gaza and violent military occupation in the West Bank.
Before it falls down the memory hole, we should remember that last week, Hamas offered a ceasefire in return for basic and achievable compromises. Don't take my word for it. According to the Israeli press, Yuval Diskin, the current head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet, "told the Israeli cabinet [on 23 December] that Hamas is interested in continuing the truce, but wants to improve its terms." Diskin explained that Hamas was requesting two things: an end to the blockade, and an Israeli ceasefire on the West Bank. The cabinet – high with election fever and eager to appear tough – rejected these terms.
The core of the situation has been starkly laid out by Ephraim Halevy, the former head of Mossad. He says that while Hamas militants – like much of the Israeli right-wing – dream of driving their opponents away, "[Hamas militants] have recognised this ideological goal is not attainable and will not be in the foreseeable future." Instead, "they are ready and willing to see the establishment of a Palestinian state in the temporary borders of 1967." They are aware that this means they "will have to adopt a path that could lead them far from their original goals" – and towards a long-term peace based on compromise.
... Halevy explains: "Israel, for reasons of its own, did not want to turn the ceasefire into the start of a diplomatic process with Hamas."
Why would Israel act this way? The Israeli government wants peace, but only one imposed on its own terms, based on the acceptance of defeat by the Palestinians. It means the Israelis can keep the slabs of the West Bank on "their" side of the wall. It means they keep the largest settlements and control the water supply. And it means a divided Palestine, with responsibility for Gaza hived off to Egypt, and the broken-up West Bank standing alone. Negotiations threaten this vision: they would require Israel to give up more than it wants to. But an imposed peace will be no peace at all: it will not stop the rockets or the rage. For real safety, Israel will have to talk to the people it is blockading and bombing today, and compromise with them.
The sound of Gaza burning should be drowned out by the words of the Israeli writer Larry Derfner. He says: "Israel's war with Gaza has to be the most one-sided on earth... If the point is to end it, or at least begin to end it, the ball is not in Hamas's court – it is in ours."
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...is-not-the-one-israel-is-telling-1214981.html
Dimitris
Well-Known Member
Report from Gaza
[ 29.12.2008 ]
Report from Gaza, Sunday 29/12/2008
From a comrade, member of the greek intifada collective who is now in Gaza.
(Translation in english by me)
Yesterday the bombarding was continuing throughout the day. After the bombing of a pharmaceuticals storage building 100 meters further from where I was sleeping, and a iron craftwork shop on the same street, other targets were also hit, among them and the old government building. Before sunset multiple hits were made. We got on the roof top and were looking at the tunnel area to be hit by bombs. I took a video as well, I will try to post it.
We left to go there, although I was personally thinking that it is very dangerous because there are thousands of tunnels and the bombings would definately continue. I was surprised to see that the people were also approaching the area rather than leaving. They were trying to take advantage of the fact that the egyptian guards had left so they were trying to break the wall and pass to Egypt. Suddently gun shots could be heard. The Egyptians were firing. The palestinians got angry and responded with stones against them. Later as it was getting darker, gunshots became more frequent. At a point an explotion was heard, possibly by palestinias who managed to destroy a part of the wall.
For quite long during the night gun shots could be heard, we could also see fireworks thrown from Egypt (in order to create light and see if palestinians were still around). The Egyptians are actively trying to keep the borders closed. The israeli are trying to cut any replenishment routes that existed. Not only the ones of Hamas but also the roadway that food and medicine was passing, the appropriate humanitarian aid for the survival of 1,5 million of palestinians, IN THEIR MAJORITY CHILDREN.
At a point bombing started again. Throughout the whole night we were jumping from our beds because of the missiles that were hitting on various areas. The spy aeroplanes are flying all the time making a characteristic noize. On occasions, different aeroplane engines can be heard, these are the F16 approaching. This is when you should be careful. The windows must be half opened in order not to break from the thrust wave. This means that we are freezing to death, because the luxury of heating does not exist.
The bombing continues. During the night I think that the Town Hall got also hit. Also again the borders area. Nomatter the continues bombings the most people remain calm. The roads are not empty as someone would think. When a target gets hit everybody goes there to help, to see if there are any wounded. I have seen men in uniforms and guns, being completely calm, although they know that they will be a target if an invation will happen, and they are certain that they will die. One thing is certain, Israeli troops will have to fight, they will meet strong resistance. This is why they have not invaded yet. They try to kill and terrorize as many people as possible, safely, with air strikes.
A friend was listening to the radio. Someone was having a "resistance" speech. I was told that he was the leader of Hezbollah Nasrala (spelling?) from Lebanon ....
I am also told that the Islamic University is hit. They bomb houses full of families, mosques that people go there to pray. They bombed suddently first day at noon, when all the streets were full of thousands of young kids who were going or leaving school. They try to create the biggest chaos possible, in order the public to get shocked, but to seem as they are only hitting Hamas on the same time.
--------------------
Do something. React. The people here are dissapointed by the arab countries. They expect support and solidarity from elsewhere. React. Get on the streets, at the organized demos. Throw a stone if neccessary it must be a demo not a funeral... The israeli here are throwing missiles all over the place. Throw some stones do something ! Here in Palestine people were seeing the uprising in Greece because of the one murdered kid and were saying "bravo !. But all these for one dead kid... here we have thousands ....."
---------------------
[ 29.12.2008 ]
Report from Gaza, Sunday 29/12/2008
From a comrade, member of the greek intifada collective who is now in Gaza.
(Translation in english by me)
Yesterday the bombarding was continuing throughout the day. After the bombing of a pharmaceuticals storage building 100 meters further from where I was sleeping, and a iron craftwork shop on the same street, other targets were also hit, among them and the old government building. Before sunset multiple hits were made. We got on the roof top and were looking at the tunnel area to be hit by bombs. I took a video as well, I will try to post it.
We left to go there, although I was personally thinking that it is very dangerous because there are thousands of tunnels and the bombings would definately continue. I was surprised to see that the people were also approaching the area rather than leaving. They were trying to take advantage of the fact that the egyptian guards had left so they were trying to break the wall and pass to Egypt. Suddently gun shots could be heard. The Egyptians were firing. The palestinians got angry and responded with stones against them. Later as it was getting darker, gunshots became more frequent. At a point an explotion was heard, possibly by palestinias who managed to destroy a part of the wall.
For quite long during the night gun shots could be heard, we could also see fireworks thrown from Egypt (in order to create light and see if palestinians were still around). The Egyptians are actively trying to keep the borders closed. The israeli are trying to cut any replenishment routes that existed. Not only the ones of Hamas but also the roadway that food and medicine was passing, the appropriate humanitarian aid for the survival of 1,5 million of palestinians, IN THEIR MAJORITY CHILDREN.
At a point bombing started again. Throughout the whole night we were jumping from our beds because of the missiles that were hitting on various areas. The spy aeroplanes are flying all the time making a characteristic noize. On occasions, different aeroplane engines can be heard, these are the F16 approaching. This is when you should be careful. The windows must be half opened in order not to break from the thrust wave. This means that we are freezing to death, because the luxury of heating does not exist.
The bombing continues. During the night I think that the Town Hall got also hit. Also again the borders area. Nomatter the continues bombings the most people remain calm. The roads are not empty as someone would think. When a target gets hit everybody goes there to help, to see if there are any wounded. I have seen men in uniforms and guns, being completely calm, although they know that they will be a target if an invation will happen, and they are certain that they will die. One thing is certain, Israeli troops will have to fight, they will meet strong resistance. This is why they have not invaded yet. They try to kill and terrorize as many people as possible, safely, with air strikes.
A friend was listening to the radio. Someone was having a "resistance" speech. I was told that he was the leader of Hezbollah Nasrala (spelling?) from Lebanon ....
I am also told that the Islamic University is hit. They bomb houses full of families, mosques that people go there to pray. They bombed suddently first day at noon, when all the streets were full of thousands of young kids who were going or leaving school. They try to create the biggest chaos possible, in order the public to get shocked, but to seem as they are only hitting Hamas on the same time.
--------------------
Do something. React. The people here are dissapointed by the arab countries. They expect support and solidarity from elsewhere. React. Get on the streets, at the organized demos. Throw a stone if neccessary it must be a demo not a funeral... The israeli here are throwing missiles all over the place. Throw some stones do something ! Here in Palestine people were seeing the uprising in Greece because of the one murdered kid and were saying "bravo !. But all these for one dead kid... here we have thousands ....."
---------------------
So it looks certain that this attack has nothing whatsoever to do with Israel's security, indeed they have engineered the instability for their own aims. The great majority of Gazans want a two state solution, and long term peace. Israel do not. They instead are seeking to destroy and undermine the Palestinians to allow the Zionist agenda of blocking in Gaza and occupying swathes of the West Bank to continue.
The other underlying issue is that a Hamas govt in Gaza is a pretty shit deal for the Gazans. They as you say rightly want a two state solution (I would quite happily swap many if not all of the settlements in Judea and Sameria for peace) but they are ruled and fooled by a Govt that will not negotiate with Israel, which has repudiated previous agreements with Israel, which is refusing to let wounded go to Egypt even though the Egyptians are ready to treat them, which has brutally swept all opposition to its rule away, and which has brought down the wrath of Israel onto the heads of their own people.
The Palestinians need compensation for what has happened to them but they will get nothing and nowhere under Hamas.
The removal of Hamas from the scene may be the best thing that could happen to the Palestinians in the short term.
It also helps to remember that the tragedy of Israel and Palestine is not all one sided as more rockets fell on Israel today http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050925.html
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
I don't often agree with or link to Mad Mel as I do find her a bit grating and extreme sometimes and although I don't agree overmuch with the tone of it but I do agree in a significant part with much of what she has said about how the media and other organisations are being biased against Israel bearing in mind that this operation is preceeded by 6000 rockets hitting Israel itself fired from Gaza. It is a text book example of how to put up the argument for the other side when the media is for various reasons (not just jew / Israeli hatred ) but for reasons of for example journalistic laziness.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3194846/groundhog-day-for-the-fifth-column-of-malice.thtml
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3194846/groundhog-day-for-the-fifth-column-of-malice.thtml
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
You know, even back when you were whatsisname I seem to recall you posting those 'I don't normally agree with <insert name of frothing right-wing nutcase writing for the Spectator here> but in this case ... '
Its a bit myopic of him to say the least if thats how he genuinely understands what he's supposedly just read. His conclusion that bombing Gaza is somehow the best outcome to what the Haraatz and Johann Hari articles have described is sickening.
Spion
I hear ya
Thanks Dimitris. Any more news from on the ground will be very welcome indeed.
teqniq
DisMembered
They had a guy from the U.N. on channel 4 news this evening saying pretty much the same thing.
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