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If fascism arose again in Europe, what would the British response be?

i hadn't heard the thing about hitler being placed into the nsdap by the german military before. do you have a link for this? i was aware that a lot of german military personnel supported the NSDAP but not that they actually placed hitler there - not sure i believe that tbh.

He was a political spy. From what I remember he was spying on the NSDAP and liked what he heard so joined. I'm not aware that he was still working for the state after he joined.

The German state did use the Friekorps, who were close to Hitler and the NSDAP, to put down leftists.
 
He was a political spy. From what I remember he was spying on the NSDAP and liked what he heard so joined. I'm not aware that he was still working for the state after he joined.

Ah, OK. I hadn't heard about the spy thing - do you have a link?

ETA: found it - slightly embarrassed that i didn't know. I knew about the whole rivalry between drexler and hitler though, drexler from recollection was very suspicious of hitler, even thinking that he was a jew!
 
i hadn't heard the thing about hitler being placed into the nsdap by the german military before. do you have a link for this? i was aware that a lot of german military personnel supported the NSDAP but not that they actually placed hitler there - not sure i believe that tbh.

I have to admit I've forgotten a lot of specific sources - but eg, F.L Carson's 1967 "The Rise of Fascism" provides a lot of detail on the funding by the rich landowners, army and Italian state of the fascist squads which fought the workers movement . Eg, In 1920 , Bonomi, the Italian Minister of War, offered demobilized Italian officers four fifths wages if they took over officering of the informal Fasci di Combattimento.

and according to Carson, In the German case, Hitler was still IN the army , working as a propagandist when sent into the fledgling NSDAP. The patronage and support of Hitler and the NSDAP remained long after - EG, in 1923 it was the Reichswehr that directly funded the establishment of the NSDAP newspaper the Volkischer Beobachter. This ongoing army patronage significantly predated the coming on board of the big private industrialists like Krupps and Thyssen. Old comrades of Hitler recounted how "he was always able to go off and come back with new funding from his many contacts". There can be little doubt that Hitler always remained entwined with German Military intelligence.

The point of all this (and one could add what we now know about BRITISH military intelligence funding of the Ulster Loyalist gangs in the 70's to 80's too) is that the fascists are quickly "taken up" by the state as a tool of anti socialist/anti insurrectionery struggle as soon as a society goes into deep social crisis. I doubt if this included the UK quite yet, but it WOULD, if our crisis deepens.
 
And as far as the British response to fascism rearing it's head? Daily Mail readers speak their mind.

With 1243 likes, the top comment:

Coming in last place with 342 dislikes:


http://www.daily [fuck if i'm linking to that shit] mail.co.uk/news/article-2140686/Greek-elections-2012-Neo-Nazi-party-Golden-Dawn-want-force-immigrants-work-camps.html?ITO=1490

that's one that always worries me. but i think of it in terms of how likely normal anti fascist people are going to be reading commenting and recommending daily mail articles. that side of the web at least only has relevance if you're a very frustrated person. i'd put implicit support in the uk for a party like golden dawn to under a percent. something pretty dire'd have to happen.

also worth noting that golden dawn have a strong street presence, though presumably not close to hitler's.
 
Yep, the street army and the violence is what makes them fascist as opposed to something like the BNP which has a negligible street presence if at all in terms of organised activity (and if they do, they're not really acting on the authority of the party). They seem very well organised and disciplined - in one of the videos I watched where they disrupted the launch of a macedonian dictionary one of them attempted to be violent and was stopped by others who told him "just" to take pictures. Scary stuff.
 
that's one that always worries me. but i think of it in terms of how likely normal anti fascist people are going to be reading commenting and recommending daily mail articles. that side of the web at least only has relevance if you're a very frustrated person. i'd put implicit support in the uk for a party like golden dawn to under a percent. something pretty dire'd have to happen.

also worth noting that golden dawn have a strong street presence, though presumably not close to hitler's.

Plenty of normal anti-fascist people read the daily mail.
 
Bit off topic, but I read somewhere recently that the Daily Mail and the Guardian have very large US online readerships, big enough to rival some of the big US papers. Why those two in particular I have no idea.
 
i doubt the daily mail or whatever its equivalent over there is would necessarily be the newspaper of choice for Golden Dawn cadres either. Could be wrong though.
 
i doubt the daily mail or whatever its equivalent over there is would necessarily be the newspaper of choice for Golden Dawn cadres either. Could be wrong though.

Still the Daily Mail has previous "form" with its notorious "Hurrah for the Blackshirts" headline in the 30's. I've always thought of the Daily Mail (which my parents bought every day I was a kid - Express on Sundays !) as pure ideological poison - printed Right Wing prejudice every day to top up the sublimated fascistic tendancies of the embittered lower middle classes..... But HEY ! ... in a GOOD way !
 
Still the Daily Mail has previous "form" with its notorious "Hurrah for the Blackshirts" headline in the 30's. I've always thought of the Daily Mail (which my parents bought every day I was a kid - Express on Sundays !) as pure ideological poison - printed Right Wing prejudice every day to top up the sublimated fascistic tendancies of the embittered lower middle classes..... But HEY ! ... in a GOOD way !

I agree but I'd have thought a lot of the time their attitude to the Daily Mail would be similar to a leftie's attitude to the guardian lol.
 
They've never called for a BNP vote here tho have they? Or have they?

There was some Tory MP who said recently that "The EDL are the only ones standing up for the English" :D :facepalm:
 
Bit off topic, but I read somewhere recently that the Daily Mail and the Guardian have very large US online readerships, big enough to rival some of the big US papers. Why those two in particular I have no idea.
The Guardian has made a definite effort to capture the readership of US liberals, lots and lots of coverage of American stories.
 
Also worth remembering that the German State in the early 1920's was being propped up by Social Democrats and other figures nominally on the left, who more than once turned a blind eye to the actions of the freikorp when they attacked their left-wing rivals.

On the topic of Greece and Golden Dawn, I can't see them ever winning power democratically, but that's probably not what they're aiming for. If the pro-austerity parties in greece manage to cobble together a government of some kind, and avoid the need for fresh elections that could see Syriza take power, it will be in a very weak position trying to push through further austerity measure. If that government goes on to fall, and the prospect of a new round of elections and a Syriza government becomes likely, I wouldn't be surprised to see a military coup take place. If the pro-memorandum government breaks down the pressure from the EU for someone or something step in and restore order will be very great, and that's probably where Golden Dawn could play a role. They already have street gangs roaming through major cities, they have sympathisers in the armed forces and police, and the presense they have in parliament is just a way to give them some political weight should all this take place. If there's a coup Golden Dawn could end up being the paramilitary wing of it, attacking the left and doing the other dirty work and so on.
 
They've never called for a BNP vote here tho have they? Or have they?

There was some Tory MP who said recently that "The EDL are the only ones standing up for the English" :D :facepalm:
No the daily Mail is Tory may have flirted with ukip and certainly has no memories of the 30s:)
 
Not an entirely abstract question if you looked at some of the anti-democratic antics of the Hungarian government.
Ultimately a Fascist government would have to leave the EU if it could not meet its commitment to human and civil rights and would be isolated like Belorussia (the land that time forgot).

The interesting question is how a British Tory government would feel about those moves as they see and believe that Europe has no values beyond a market and free trade zone. Thatcher for example pushed for Turkey's entry when it was still a military dictatorship.
 
Human rights is European council not EU... EU's not getting that worked up about Hungary.. The EU is hardly in a position to bang on about democracy, thats not what they're about.
 
Human rights is European council not EU... EU's not getting that worked up about Hungary.. The EU is hardly in a position to bang on about democracy, thats not what they're about.

It is but you have to abide by the ECHR (as UKIP are never tired of reminding us) and a liberal democratic multi party system to be a member state.

Good point about Hungary, the MEPs certainly are but I doubt if the government is quaking in its boots by a stern rebuke off Colin from Eastenders.
 
Not an entirely abstract question if you looked at some of the anti-democratic antics of the Hungarian government.
Ultimately a Fascist government would have to leave the EU if it could not meet its commitment to human and civil rights and would be isolated like Belorussia (the land that time forgot).

The interesting question is how a British Tory government would feel about those moves as they see and believe that Europe has no values beyond a market and free trade zone. Thatcher for example pushed for Turkey's entry when it was still a military dictatorship.

I would expect "Dave" to spot an opportunity and organise another of his "Merchants of Death" roadshows in Greece IMMEDIATELY there was a military coup (though his last one was a tad mistimed around the Middle East it's true). And in case any Leftie starts bleating .. it's no longer called "providing weapons of mass repression to fascist Juntas" .. but " facilitating market stabilization"....OK ?!
 
Not an entirely abstract question if you looked at some of the anti-democratic antics of the Hungarian government.
Ultimately a Fascist government would have to leave the EU if it could not meet its commitment to human and civil rights and would be isolated like Belorussia (the land that time forgot).

The interesting question is how a British Tory government would feel about those moves as they see and believe that Europe has no values beyond a market and free trade zone. Thatcher for example pushed for Turkey's entry when it was still a military dictatorship.
sadly i don't agree that the EU wouldn't allow a fash government once in power to stay in the eurozone. I don't think they care about morals, I think they only care about what will affect "stability" and "economic growth" sadly. If a fash party got in power in a country it would probably end up leaving imo but not because of the EU, I think they would end up leaving by themselves.
 
Could you imagine many of the EU leaders getting upset if Golden Dawn or whatever got in power in Greece, or Jobbik in Hungary or whatever. There would be only two or three things imo that Merkel and co would be concerned about.

1. Whether they could "balance the books" and meet their "commitments"
2. Floods of refugees fleeing that country and ending up elsewhere in Europe (admittedly a pretty big one)
3. "Investment prospects" if the fash were to clamp down on "foreign" capital
and (4. Protests against and fear of the far right/an anti-fascist pro worker backlash across Europe developing, Cable Street MK II etc, as it undoubtedly would if the Fash took power in any country)

I think if GD got in in greece they would leave voluntarily and Merkel and co would be more than happy to let them go. If it was a large important economy I reckon they'd do all they could to try to get them to stay, but they would end up leaving anyway for economic/ideological reasons.
 
Based on what? You hazarding a guess? Year on year the social attitudes survey says the opposite. The polls say the opposite. The election results say the opposite.

Such pathetic fear. It's everyone else and they read the daily mail.

You disgust me.
 
Based on what? You hazarding a guess? Year on year the social attitudes survey says the opposite. The polls say the opposite. The election results say the opposite.

Such pathetic fear. It's everyone else and they read the daily mail.

You disgust me.

Do you ever think about the bigger things in life, mr butchers? Or are you content agonizing over my every posting here - bit of a waste, isn't it?

Here's a tip to help get you through those terse, trying moments. Put me on ignore and you'll never have to suffer again.
 
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