If fascism arose again in Europe, what would the British response be?

[Sasaferrato]

There have been widespread lynchings of black libyans and black migrant workers by TNC forces. Arising (iirc) from the false report that gaddafi had hired a black mercenary army

I don't doubt that scores will be settled, and without troops on the ground, which is unthinkable, difficult to prevent.

 

[butchersapron]

Not so sure about that, there certainly was in 1939. It is hard to see a similar situation arising again, due to NATO, the EU etc. I cannot see the far right achieving anything like the level of popular support that would be required to take over a single European country, never mind having enough support to wage war.

Apart from the nutters on both sides of the line, who are much louder than their numbers, European politics is drifting into the middle.

No it's not! It's undergoing a high level of polarisation. How can you have missed this?

 

[ayatollah]

Like Butchersapron, Sasaferrato, I do wonder which parallel reality you occupy to believe that "European politics is drifting into the middle" ! Are you ensconced in some sort of bunker and haven't noticed what's been happening across the globe since the 2008 Crash. Better have a look outside mate... it's all looking a bit pear-shaped for the great right of centre political consensus.

 

[Casually Red]

It could be said that fascism has already taken root in Italy and elsewhere in mainland Europe.

But even if a fascist part(ies) somehow managed to get into government, what could they do in a sitaution where governments no longer control their economies, in the midst of what's a worldwide depression in all but name, with a population most of which would be opposed to it to one degree or another and surrounded by governments and international institutions containing at least leading individuals and groupings would be opposed to it? Etc.

All of this would also apply to a radical left government.

the european economic situation is getting to the point where attempts may be made again for governments - whether left or right - to regain control of economies. In the context of an eu breakdown becoming considerably more likely we cant rule that out . A breakdown of the EU currency , while by no means a certainty - is a very real possibility . And once that happens the project is largely stuffed . Out of that scenario we are more likely to see the rise of increasingly populist and nationalistic figures .

 

[Casually Red]

One would hope so. I don't think it would make any difference, TBH, whichever political flavour happened to be in government at the time. I don't think that the center-left is any less honourable than the center-right.

The recent NATO intervention in Libya is a good example of the international community acting in the interests of the oppressed. I suspect that the eventual outcome may not be that which was intended though.

they were acting in their own interests and nobody elses . Immediately before it they were supporting Ben Ali, even offering to send security forces to prop him up . At the very same moment they were embargoing and bombing Libyans they were tooling Saudi and Bahrain up to puttheir people down . All in their own interests . Gaddafi had been making noises abbout nationalising oil wealth and hanging about with Chavez and the Nicaraguans , pissing off the oil execs left right and centre . Interfering in African infrastructure - basically by funding a lot of it that would mean African raw materials got processed in Africa as opposed to europe and sold back to them Thats why he got the chop and no other reason.

 

[Casually Red]

I think you are right Casually Red - I don't think the Italians will react with British style passivity to the extreme austerity measures the IMF et al will require of them. Turbulent times ahead. As you say , the Italian fascist tradition (AND the socialist one of course) is a deep one - and The Northern League in particular reflect the continuation of this (Right Populist/neo-fascist) tradition even during the boom years.

their gripe during the boom years is that its their Industrial and commercialised part of Italy which was creating the wealth and the southern agrarian part sponging off it . They habitually refer to the southern part of Italy as Africa and Somalia . Their opinions towards fellow Italians arent that much to write home about to begin with . Doesnt take a genius to cop to what their views on immigrants are .

And since the events on the arab peninsula theres going to be a damn sight more of them . Added to the already volatile Italian mix its a worrying situation . Neo fascist groups have already been taking up the government offer of citizens patrols , just as we've seen in Hungary .

Essentially we have a european far right followiing steep upward trajectory combined with a european economic collapse following a steep downwards trajectory . Neither look likely to level off any time soon . Which is grounds for real concern in my opinion .

 

[Casually Red]

Apart from the nutters on both sides of the line, who are much louder than their numbers, European politics is drifting into the middle.

ffs even Belgium has split into two seperate ethnic bantustans . Where have you been ?

 

[LLETSA]

the european economic situation is getting to the point where attempts may be made again for governments - whether left or right - to regain control of economies. In the context of an eu breakdown becoming considerably more likely we cant rule that out . A breakdown of the EU currency , while by no means a certainty - is a very real possibility . And once that happens the project is largely stuffed . Out of that scenario we are more likely to see the rise of increasingly populist and nationalistic figures .

Yes we are. But the factors I mention would remain. It's highly unlikely that governments of any stripe will regain control of their economies, and populations can easily be whipped up against them by those who call the shots uncontrolled by any government. Radical left and right governments would obviously face highly polarised societies and prove very short lived. The war of all against all, on the other hand, is a more likely prospect in the kind of situation you mention and could well continue regardless of the type of government in office.

 

[ayatollah]

The UK Coalition government's position in all this is instructive ... apparently ENTIRELY interested in ensuring that the London Financial Sector isn't in any way constrained by any attempts by the EU to rein in its rampant , destabilizing, excesses.. or even impose a small "Robin Hood" tax on transactions.

As far as I know, apart from its huge impact on London Property prices and the spin off from big Financial Sector saleries into the City wine bars , the HUGE tax avoidence by the UK Financial Sector means it has a surprisingly small positive tax revenue impact on the UK relative to its giant turnover. Yet its interests are obvously paramount for the Bullingdon Group chaps.

Even in Lenin's era he was known to muse on whether , because of Britain's predominant world position as an imperialist , rentier, power, not only were all our political parties thoroughly Bourgeois, but our working class was too - so drawn into servicing the needs of imperialism had it become.... sharing in the superprofits of our imperial position.

Even today, our empire gone, the UK population is increasingly a "coupon clipping" workforce for Finance capital, and much of our prosperity depends onthe remaining UK role as a key centre for world Finance Capitalism. We collectively then might be persuaded by our lords and masters to see attempts by the Greeks, Italians, etc, to lift of the yolk of their debt by default, as an attack on us all. I'm not sure where this musing leads I have to admit - But there is currently a series on Channel 4 "exposing" the spendthrift ways of the Greeks which looks like part of a propaganda drive to persuade us all not to feel any solidarity with those fighting the austerity measures imposed by the IMF.

This dependance(or claimed dependence) on the loot of our UK Finance Sector will make it perhaps difficult for the UK radical Right to be quite so snotty in their propaganda about Finance Capitalism as the FN in France or Northern League etc are , if at some future time they want financial support from Big Business - yet this nowadays(with racism of course) is a mainstay of fascist ideology. And it will certainly put off Big Business in the UK from backing the fascists - in a way which might not be quite so evident in Greece, Italy, etc, with their relatively small Financial sectors.

 

[Sasaferrato]

ffs even Belgium has split into two seperate ethnic bantustans . Where have you been ?

Given that they haven't had a government for months, I can't see them summoning the energy for a civil war, never mind a pan-European takeover.

 

[Sasaferrato]

they were acting in their own interests and nobody elses . Immediately before it they were supporting Ben Ali, even offering to send security forces to prop him up . At the very same moment they were embargoing and bombing Libyans they were tooling Saudi and Bahrain up to puttheir people down . All in their own interests . Gaddafi had been making noises abbout nationalising oil wealth and hanging about with Chavez and the Nicaraguans , pissing off the oil execs left right and centre . Interfering in African infrastructure - basically by funding a lot of it that would mean African raw materials got processed in Africa as opposed to europe and sold back to them Thats why he got the chop and no other reason.

You are behind the times a bit, the principal player in Africa is China, and has been for a while. China is also the largest user of African natural resources. Unfortunately China is also the biggest possesor of rare earth metals, especially Neodymium, which is essential for the high power magnets in those absurd wind turbines.

 

[iROBOT]

Of course, his thesis was hardly original. The whole expansionist "blut und boden" bollocks was implicit in much of the late 19th and early 20th century volkische nationalist rhetoric that Hitler would have been exposed to. The whole "German mission" schtick was prevalent throughout the upper and middle classes.

There was even "blood and Iron"

Hitler was the missing element that galvanized all those lose right wing threads into a "coherent" entity and it's also true to say that the likes of Hindenburg (who appointed him with council from his cohorts) saw him as an easily malleable puppet, a vast miscalculation.

Nothing like him exists anywhere in Europe now but who can tell in the future? I put nothing past Europeans (considering their history).

Oh, (ETA) I never said he was original on my initial post (ta).

 

[frogwoman]

You are behind the times a bit, the principal player in Africa is China, and has been for a while. China is also the largest user of African natural resources. Unfortunately China is also the biggest possesor of rare earth metals, especially Neodymium, which is essential for the high power magnets in those absurd wind turbines.

There have been huge protests recently in Nigeria against chinese imperialism.

 

[Casually Red]

You are behind the times a bit, the principal player in Africa is China, and has been for a while. China is also the largest user of African natural resources. Unfortunately China is also the biggest possesor of rare earth metals, especially Neodymium, which is essential for the high power magnets in those absurd wind turbines.

which it isnt engaged in selling back to the africans . Im talking about basic commodities and foodstuffs the African market itself consumes .

 

[Casually Red]

Given that they haven't had a government for months, I can't see them summoning the energy for a civil war, never mind a pan-European takeover.

righto , Belgium is breaking up because of laziness . Good man . Theyre all too busy lying about quaffing Hoegaarden and eating rollmops to bother electing a government . There was me thinking 2 sections of the population had gown to despise each other so much they wanted nothing more to do with each other . Phew .

 

[ViolentPanda]

righto , Belgium is breaking up because of laziness . Good man . Theyre all too busy lying about quaffing Hoegaarden and eating rollmops to bother electing a government . There was me thinking 2 sections of the population had gown to despise each other so much they wanted nothing more to do with each other . Phew .

Hoegaarden? Are you calling them poofs? It's Chimay for the win!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ironically enough, Belgium is doing really rather well at the moment without a government. Perhaps they're onto something.

 

[Pickman's model]

You are behind the times a bit, the principal player in Africa is China, and has been for a while. China is also the largest user of African natural resources. Unfortunately China is also the biggest possesor of rare earth metals, especially Neodymium, which is essential for the high power magnets in those absurd wind turbines.

not so much wind turbines more important used in mobile communications. don't let the obsession with wind turbines obscure this more important use of the metals.

 

[frogwoman]

Ironically enough, Belgium is doing really rather well at the moment without a government. Perhaps they're onto something.

to be fair, although they haven't got austerity measures to the same extent as other countries in europe, i've got mates there and i'm not at all sure that it can be described as "rather well".

 

[JimW]

China still doesn't extract as many resources from Africa as either the US or Europe; last figures I can find are for 2010 where 30-odd percent of African oil went to the US, 30-odd to Europe and only 13 percent to China. It'll probably have risen since then but not by enough to outstrip the US and Europe. Oil accounts for about 65% of the resources China imports from Africa.
It does export a fair bit more tat than the US, and as much as Europe now too I believe, but that's a different matter (and only a small part of China's total world trade volume).
So China is definitely the emerging player in Africa, but by no means the largest as yet. Always strikes me as telling that we get these scare stories (many not without basis) when an emerging power starts doing the sort of thing the US and Europe have for years (ETA and of course in proportion to its increasing integration into the neoliberal world order), and there are often better terms for the African states (which I realise means local elites by and large) than would have been seen from elsewhere.
The US only recently formed its Africa Command: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Africa_Command I'm not much up on the rationale, but presumably that's linked. Can't see from that if it played a part in Libya, or does it stay out when it's ostensibly NATO?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

to be fair, although they haven't got austerity measures to the same extent as other countries in europe, i've got mates there and i'm not at all sure that it can be described as "rather well".

Compared to most other places, including the UK, it is doing far better. Smallish but continuous growth since its sharp but smallish recession, GDP now higher than it was pre-recession. By comparison, in the UK, GDP is currently around 97% its pre-recession figure.

This table has a small mistake. I just double-checked and I am sure it is actually showing quarterly GDP growth, not annual as stated.

Here's the UK by comparison. Bigger recession and slower recovery. And the UK is far from the worst example in Europe, of course.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sorry, stat-tastic, but here's the disaster that is Greece. Recession started about the same time and ironically wasn't as deep as other countries initially. But the last two years have wiped 10% off GDP. Even compared to other places in trouble such as Spain, this is a disastrous picture. Spain suffered an almost identical recession to the UK, and has been flatlining since.

 

[iROBOT]

There have been huge protests recently in Nigeria against chinese imperialism.

Small derail here. I'm aware of the protests against the killings of Nigerian workers/students in China by the Police, but cant find anything about "huge protests...against Chinese imperialism" Can you point me in the right direction with a link or two?

 

[frogwoman]

Trying to find the link at the mo ...

 

[chilango]

Chinese "imperialism" was a big issue in this year's Zambian elections.

 

[JimW]

Michael Sata - apparently he worked for British Rail once upon a time!
Been a bit funny watching the sort of Chinese diplomats who routinely claim not to get involved in the internal politics of other countries either denounce him or (allegedly) fund his rival in the elections. Other side of coin was Sata toning down the rhetoric a bit as I recall - be interesting to see if he follows through, suspect money will talk but must admit only know a few headlines.

 

[iROBOT]

Interesting posts re-China

I think Chinas increasing involvement in Africa deserves it's own thread?

Any takers? (I not being the thread starting type).

 

[frogwoman]

I couldn't find a link mate but I'm just going by what someone told me. I'll carry on looking though. I just found this interesting article about small business owners rioting in China though:

http://www.nigeriancompass.com/inde...eastern-china&catid=324:world-news&Itemid=542

 

[frogwoman]

Actually this may be what I was thinking of:

http://www.nigeriancompass.com/inde...rkers-rights&catid=323:africa-news&Itemid=595

there's growing discontent in africa over the role of china.

 

[Casually Red]

i wonder who could be stirring it ?