If fascism arose again in Europe, what would the British response be?

[iROBOT]

@frogwomn thanks for the links (appreciated).

@Casually Red Indeed, JimW's comments are worth noting that China is not Africa's main trader, and I doubt they are any worse then the Europeans/USA. However I'm in no way a position to claim that as some sort of fact without knowing more.

 

[JimW]

Just to clarify, AFAIK China's now exporting slightly more to Africa than Europe or the US etc. (which has been claimed impacts any chance of local manufacturing taking off as it's the low-end goods bourgeois economists think African countries might produce themselves), but still not the main buyer of African resources. There's also accusations of using too much Chinese rather than local labour and some piss-poor management practices that often might well be worse than what a Western transnational might try to get away with, my point is that it's being framed in Sinophobic terms rather than labour versus capital and as Casually Red hints, the people moaning are often Western actors pissed off at no longer having it all there own way.
There's a good blog run by a US academic on China in Africa that tries to counter the bias without being blindly pro-China: http://www.chinaafricarealstory.com/
This one has some interesting stuff too: http://mqvu.wordpress.com/
Then there's African left sites and this from a university in SA: http://www.ccs.org.za/

 

[song_lyric]

hi,

i found this thread thru google.

how does fascist politics work - if say le pen's daughter got elected, could she in effect do what golden dawn say they want, deport non whites [i assume] or send them to camps? what about politically active individuals, could they be targeted too?

it doesn't seem like much of a possibility to me, but maybe just because the papers are all quiet about it.

 

[song_lyric]

the homeless... disabled... whatever.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Salami tactics.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Fascism was a disaster for capitalism during and after the 2nd world war in terms of the destruction it caused, the wealth lost, the people/resources lost or deliberately shut out of the "market" etc.

I don't think I'd agree with that. It was a goldmine for American companies - actually, not just US companies, but any company that made things needed in the war effort. That includes the large German Corporations like Krupp, Bayer, Agfa, BASF, etc. Allied companies traded with Nazi Germany. Lots of money was made.

Also, in terms of the larger picture, the world was in a devastating recession prior to WW2, with no signs of letup, and with socialism making inroads in many countries. The war was the kickstart that capitalism needed to get back in the saddle again.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

There are number of countries across Europe in which the far right are becoming more popular. The French National Front, the Austrian Freedom Part etc. Given that we may be facing 15-20 years of economic depression, it is not beyond possibility that one or more countries may end up voting in an extremist government.

So what would the British response be to such an event? Prior to WW2 the far right had a prominent presence in the form of the BUF, but eventually we fell on the side of liberal democracy. Would the same happen again?

We may get a chance to find out, with Russia in the role of the bad guy this time.

 

[ayatollah]

I don't think I'd agree with that. It was a goldmine for American companies - actually, not just US companies, but any company that made things needed in the war effort. That includes the large German Corporations like Krupp, Bayer, Agfa, BASF, etc. Allied companies traded with Nazi Germany. Lots of money was made.

Also, in terms of the larger picture, the world was in a devastating recession prior to WW2, with no signs of letup, and with socialism making inroads in many countries. The war was the kickstart that capitalism needed to get back in the saddle again.

Sadly, I think you are quite right. However we also need to remember that having decided to "ride the capitalist tiger" in the face of working class revolt (not just in Germany and Italy of course , but in France too really) the capitalist classes of Europe were very glad to be rescued from the complete madmen they'd put in power when the Allies won WWII and reconstructed more "conventional" bourgeois capialist practices on the continent one again. From capitalism , as a system of oppression's, point of view though, fascism and WWII were a "great success" as Johnny Canuck3, says.

 

[frogwoman]

hi,

i found this thread thru google.

how does fascist politics work - if say le pen's daughter got elected, could she in effect do what golden dawn say they want, deport non whites [i assume] or send them to camps? what about politically active individuals, could they be targeted too?

it doesn't seem like much of a possibility to me, but maybe just because the papers are all quiet about it.

interesting first post typed out a response last night but my computer crashed.

i don't think that le pen's daughter could carry out the fascist programme now if she got in power. don't forget that allowing the fash to do whatever they want in a government is generally a last resort, because of the instability of fascist governments (and even more so after the war) and she would face overwhelming pressure not to do it. under a normal situation the prospect of an extreme-right populist government taking control is dreaded almost as much as an extreme left one. don't forget that capital needs elections, they need trade unions to exist (in a pretty limited form) they need governments to have some degree of popular legitimacy (or to appear to), they need there not to be much visible corruption because all of these could harm investment prospects, etc.

that's even assuming she would even want to "deport non whites and send them to camps". i'm not sure she does. does she? the FN isn't a nazi party, i don't even think it's an explicitly fascist party. there are plenty of high-profile supporters of it who are not white, it's also become pretty "reformist" in recent years to make it a more palatable option for voters. that doesn't mean that they couldn't or wouldn't introduce racist laws. sarkozy has. but i personally don't think that they could do much different to what sarkozy has done. which is pretty bad in itself, but it's not fascism. i think she is more interested in power than maintaining ideological purity.

if the government was to take a more explicitly fascist direction it would be a massive risk in these conditions and if she got in power i wouldn't see that much changing except that life would get a lot more difficult for people who weren't "french" - but under sarkozy it has already.

 

[frogwoman]

However we also need to remember that having decided to "ride the capitalist tiger" in the face of working class revolt (not just in Germany and Italy of course , but in France too really) the capitalist classes of Europe were very glad to be rescued from the complete madmen they'd put in power when the Allies won WWII and reconstructed more "conventional" bourgeois capialist practices on the continent one again.

Yep, fascism was in some ways a complete disaster for the capitalist class. They don't want that again.

 

[frogwoman]

I don't think I'd agree with that. It was a goldmine for American companies - actually, not just US companies, but any company that made things needed in the war effort. That includes the large German Corporations like Krupp, Bayer, Agfa, BASF, etc. Allied companies traded with Nazi Germany. Lots of money was made.

Also, in terms of the larger picture, the world was in a devastating recession prior to WW2, with no signs of letup, and with socialism making inroads in many countries. The war was the kickstart that capitalism needed to get back in the saddle again.

I agree with this though.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yep, fascism was in some ways a complete disaster for the capitalist class. They don't want that again.

I think that might change if the public becomes too restive, or strays too far from the fold.

 

[song_lyric]

i'm not sure i understand what difference it makes whether capitalists want fascist states.

i don't think that le pen's daughter could carry out the fascist programme now if she got in power. don't forget that allowing the fash to do whatever they want in a government is generally a last resort, because of the instability of fascist governments (and even more so after the war) and she would face overwhelming pressure not to do it.

who would stop her?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

hi,

i found this thread thru google.
.

No you didn't.

 

[SpineyNorman]

i'm not sure i understand what difference it makes whether capitalists want fascist states.


who would stop her?

The answer to your second question is also the answer to your first question. If capitalists don't want it then it won't happen. Fascism requires, at least initially, the support of large sections of the capitalist class to come to power.

 

[song_lyric]

no i did!

you can probably trace it... so why's that then??

 

[frogwoman]

i'm not sure i understand what difference it makes whether capitalists want fascist states.


who would stop her?

the same people who would stop a left-wing government getting into power and carrying out its programme.

 

[song_lyric]

i think i believe that if golden dawn, at least, were or even are voted into power they would be able to carry out their policies. also, presumably they would be a little bit more bloody than their democratic face lets on.
though i'm open to being corrected!

 

[frogwoman]

i think i believe that if golden dawn, at least, were or even are voted into power they would be able to carry out their policies. also, presumably they would be a little bit more bloody than their democratic face lets on.
though i'm open to being corrected!

What democratic face do Golden Dawn have? Golden Dawn are not a reformist party, they are a Nazi party. They don't even pretend to be democratic. They sell copies of books of Hitler's speeches on their website ffs. The FN are not nazis and indeed parties like that have spent the best part of 20 years as an electoral strategy trying to get away from any public association with nazism, they have even largely purged the Golden Dawn types from their ranks.

 

[frogwoman]

i think i believe that if golden dawn, at least, were or even are voted into power they would be able to carry out their policies. also, presumably they would be a little bit more bloody than their democratic face lets on.
though i'm open to being corrected!

Do you think a party with 7% of the vote has a chance of getting into power?

 

[Red Storm]

Do you think a party with 7% of the vote has a chance of getting into power?

You've got to start somewhere.

I wouldn't bet my life that GD wouldn't get into power but it is unlikely.

The unlikely has to happen sometime though, maybe this time it will be Greece.

 

[frogwoman]

You've got to start somewhere.

I wouldn't bet my life that GD wouldn't get into power but it is unlikely.

The unlikely has to happen sometime though, maybe this time it will be Greece.

True that. If they got into power though they'd probably have to seriously water down their programme though, at least in current conditions. In a few years time though, who knows?

 

[frogwoman]

That said, with the fact that Pasok are starting up detention camps for immigrants etc ... that's still a long way though from what GD have in mind i guess.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Do you think a party with 7% of the vote has a chance of getting into power?

In 1928 the Nazi's had 2.6% of the German vote. By 1933 Hitler was Chancellor.

 

[Blagsta]

In 1928 the Nazi's had 2.6% of the German vote. By 1933 Hitler was Chancellor.

He wasn't voted in as chancellor though, he was placed there.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

And as far as the British response to fascism rearing it's head? Daily Mail readers speak their mind.

With 1243 likes, the top comment:

I think that the indigenous people of Europe are getting sick and tired of being discriminated against by their own governments and being treated as second class citizens in their own countries. I'm not surprised by the rise of the right, I actually think more people are in favour of it but are too frightened to admit it !.​

- Vladtepes, West Country, 7/5/2012 13:53​

​

Coming in last place with 342 dislikes:​

The loonies have taken over the asylum!​

- Warren, Coventry, 7/5/2012 14:14

http://www.daily [fuck if i'm linking to that shit] mail.co.uk/news/article-2140686/Greek-elections-2012-Neo-Nazi-party-Golden-Dawn-want-force-immigrants-work-camps.html?ITO=1490

​

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

He wasn't voted in as chancellor though, he was placed there.

I know. The point is that you don't necessarily need large numbers to vote for you, just a foot in the door and the 'right' social/economic conditions to force a crisis you can take advantage of.

 

[Blagsta]

true, although Hitler had a large street prescence with the brown shirts

 

[ayatollah]

In 1928 the Nazi's had 2.6% of the German vote. By 1933 Hitler was Chancellor.

Yep, at the last democratic German election in 1933 the NAZIS got 17 million vote, or nearly 44% of the vote ! Hardly "being handed" power by the ruling class - Hitler was in a pretty strong position to DEMAND it - especially if the bourgeoisie wanted him to turn his huge SA street army to the pressing task of erradicating the left and trades unions - Without this time any interference from the police - indeed with its active collaboration once Hitler was Chancellor. Quite a rise from 2.6% in 1928 - but , as Greece shows today, that's the sort of political earthquake which happens when societies go into meltdown. Remember too that Hitler was placed in the infant NSDAP by German Military intelligence, who actively fostered it, and the much bigger SA street army (which had been used as a sort of military reserve force on occasions in disputes with Poland, and predated the formation of the NSDAP by many years). I suspect that the hand of Greek security services will be equally present in funding and supporting the Greek Nazis and their street thugs.

 

[frogwoman]

Yep, at the last democratic German election in 1933 the NAZIS got 17 million vote, or nearly 44% of the vote ! Hardly "being handed" power by the ruling class - Hitler was in a pretty strong position to DEMAND it - especially if the bourgeoisie wanted him to turn his huge SA street army to the pressing task of erradicating the left and trades unions - Without this time any interference from the police - indeed with its active collaboration once Hitler was Chancellor. Quite a rise from 2.6% in 1928 - but , as Greece shows today, that's the sort of political earthquake which happens when societies go into meltdown. Remember too that Hitler was placed in the infant NSDAP by German Military intelligence, who actively fostered it, and the much bigger SA street army (which had been used as a sort of military reserve force on occasions in disputes with Poland, and predated the formation of the NSDAP by many years). I suspect that the hand of Greek security services will be equally present in funding and supporting the Greek Nazis and their street thugs.

i hadn't heard the thing about hitler being placed into the nsdap by the german military before. do you have a link for this? i was aware that a lot of german military personnel supported the NSDAP but not that they actually placed hitler there - not sure i believe that tbh.