Hundreds of workers protest against Italians/Foreigners 'taking jobs'...

[TwoTimer]

It's not though, an Italian company has won a contract within the EU and is carrying out that contract with its own labour force which it is perfectly entitled to do.

If this is a problem maybe you should be questioning the reasons why it is so that companies from other EU states are more competative than those within the UK.

...which would then drag onto worldwide equality. I'm sure we could find workers for even less outside of the EU? Do you think we should beat ourselves up over why Africa is more competitive that the EU. Something tells me that you're answer is "Yes."

Britain can't change the world but she can make her own laws and life would be a lot easier if we just pulled out of the fucking EU.

 

[chilango]

Commuters argument is not the same because they are not taking jobs at the expense of others. And they are not being flown in from 1000's of miles to live 6 to a room on some sort of prison ship. You seem to be arguing in favour of neo liberal economics, basically the freedom of companies to employ the cheapest labour at any cost.

How is it different?

 

[Fuchs66]

There seems to be a lot of frightening ignorance about EU law here

 

[kyser_soze]

I agree but then do you support the demonstrations? Should the Italian workers be encouraged to join them and direct the anger against the employers?

Of course the Italians should be encouraged to come out on strike - if they're earning less than UK workers in Italy, and have been bought over for this purpose, then any action they take here to secure higher wages will benefit them at home too.

But you need to stop thinking of this in national terms - they're part of the same legal entity as you and I, the same 'nation' and we should all behave as such.

 

[kyser_soze]

...which would then drag onto worldwide equality. I'm sure we could find workers for even less outside of the EU? Do you think we should beat ourselves up over why Africa is more competitive that the EU. Something tells me that you're answer is "Yes."

Britain can't change the world but she can make her own laws and life would be a lot easier if we just pulled out of the fucking EU.

Jesus H fucking Christ.

 

[Part 2]

So its xenophobic to think that its wrong for a company working in Britain to state that it will not employ British workers ?

Or am I missing something ?

The point I was making is it appears (to me) that the media will rather portray this as an issue of foreign workers rather than an issue of greed on the part of company bosses.

 

[teuchter]

Can someone who knows what they are talking about clarify a couple of things for me:

Do the rules for foreign workers doing this kind of contract work vary significantly from one EU state to the other, or not? (eg. is it any more difficult for a UK worker to do contract work in Italy, than it is for an Italian to do similar work here?)

Is there anything stopping UK workers taking the same UK contract work as these foreign workers are taking, under the same terms and pay?

 

[Fuchs66]

...which would then drag onto worldwide equality.

and this is a bad thing?

I'm sure we could find workers for even less outside of the EU?

quite possibly but you are then talking about a way different legal framework

Do you think we should beat ourselves up over why Africa is more competitive that the EU. Something tells me that you're answer is "Yes."

Is Africa more competative?

Britain can't change the world but she can make her own laws and life would be a lot easier if we just pulled out of the fucking EU.

If you would be happy with laws made in the UK without the balancing framework that the EU has provided then fill yer boots and vote for the UKIP

 

[Divisive Cotton]

No they're not, they're working on a fixed term construction contract seperate from the normal work of the refinery, IF the workers were taking the jobs of those permenently employed there this might be the case. Sounds like some here are really falling for the good old fashioned "divide and rule".

They are crossing the picket line...

 

[Stoat Boy]

I fully understand the bits about EU law and so on and accept the idea that the wider struggle is about the system that encourages employees to seek the cheapest labour to maximise profits.

But you are a man with a family to support and you see cheaper labour being bought in to do a job that you can do. Not only that but you are not even being offered a chance to do that job.

What are you meant to do ? How can you express your disquiet at this ? What avenues are open to you ? Who is willing to listen to your worries about not being able to buy your kids birthday presents ( emotive I accept but the sort of every day concern that many people have ) ? Who does represent you ?

 

[kyser_soze]

So its xenophobic to think that its wrong for a company working in Britain to state that it will not employ British workers ?

Or am I missing something ?

There may well be something against them specifically saying they won't recruit Brits in competition or Labour law, but there may be technical reasons for only employing existing staff - technical knowledge, knowledge of company methodolgy that would take time to train a local workforce in.

 

[In Bloom]

Errrr.... you live in the UK, yes?

If so, I suspect you certainly will start to give a shit where tax revenues go when public spending has to be slashed due to the recession and a sharp decrease in tax receipts: when rubbish starts piling up in the streets, schools have to close one day a week, NHS budgets are slashed and you cannot get an appointment with your doctor, government has to cut welfare payments, crime goes through the roof, social services contract massively and there is no public money to repair infrastructure so it gets sold off to foreign corporations who milk you blind.

And you then lose your job.

Public spending never "has" to be slashed, there's always some fucking excuse.

In any case, I seriously doubt that the tiny amount of tax revenue that would be generated by a few hundred foreign manual labourers is going to have a signifigant impact on a situation where public spending has supposedly been slashed to the point where rubbish is piling up in the streets.

 

[Fuchs66]

Can someone who knows what they are talking about clarify a couple of things for me:

Do the rules for foreign workers doing this kind of contract work vary significantly from one EU state to the other, or not? (eg. is it any more difficult for a UK worker to do contract work in Italy, than it is for an Italian to do similar work here?)

Is there anything stopping UK workers taking the same UK contract work as these foreign workers are taking, under the same terms and pay?

It is exactly the same an EU citizen has the right to work and live in any EU state and pay taxes in the country he/she is normally resident in (although I believe there are a couple of bilateral agreements that affect this slightly)

There is absolutely nothing stopping an individual UK worker or a UK company working in other states within the EU.

 

[kyser_soze]

Incidentally, does anyone have proof that these guys will be earning less than their UK equivalents for this work?

 

[strummerville]

Commuters argument is not the same because the commuters are not taking jobs at the expense of others. And they are not being flown in from 1000's of miles to live 6 to a room on some sort of prison ship. You seem to be arguing in favour of neo liberal economics, basically the freedom of companies to employ the cheapest labour at any cost.

How is it different?

To me it's not a nationalist argument. If I am working somewhere and then told I am unable to work because they can someone else to do the same job for far less money than i was earning then i would be pissed off. It doesn't matter where those people came from, it's still wrong. Unless you believe in the idea of a completely unfettered free market.

 

[snadge]

There may well be something against them specifically saying they won't recruit Brits in competition or Labour law, but there may be technical reasons for only employing existing staff - technical knowledge, knowledge of company methodolgy that would take time to train a local workforce in.

Garbage, it is about cheaper labour, I have worked on many FGD plants and have vast experience with these types of units as have my fellow workers, this FGD is the Italians company's fist attempt using AMEC designs.

It is about cheaper labour and the drive towards minimum wage for ALL manual workers.

 

[kyser_soze]

Garbage, it is about cheaper labour, I have worked on many FGD plants and have vast experience with these types of units as have my fellow workers, this FGD is the Italians company's fist attempt using AMEC designs.

It is about cheaper labour and the drive towards minimum wage for ALL manual workers.

Proof?

 

[Andy the Don]

Quite.

Temp contract with a UK company in Italy.

Just like the Italians above.

I would say that you are employed in Italy because you have a certain skill set that is not available from within the local populous. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
In the case of the current industrial action I would imagine that the skills these Italian workers have are readily available from UK workers. Therefore Total should have given the contract to a UK company. If a UK company cannot fulfill the requirements of Total (a French company) it should have been an express condition of the contract that UK workers be employed.

Do you honestly think that a contract in any EU country would have gone to a company that then imported workers from another EU country to complete the contract?

 

[Fuchs66]

To me it's not a nationalist argument. If I am working somewhere and then told I am unable to work because they can someone else to do the same job for far less money than i was earning then i would be pissed off. It doesn't matter where those people came from, it's still wrong. Unless you believe in the idea of a completely unfettered free market.

It is nationalistic in so far as the EU (as has already been stated), cannot be seen as a collection of individual states I think an unfettered free market is a worthwhile aim yes, I have worked within the EU since 91 and I have experienced the hard times with the good times and I still support the concept.

 

[teuchter]

It is exactly the same an EU citizen has the right to work and live in any EU state and pay taxes in the country he/she is normally resident in (although I believe there are a couple of bilateral agreements that affect this slightly)

There is absolutely nothing stopping an individual UK worker or a UK company working in other states within the EU.

And is there any reason why a UK worker can't do the same contract work that the foreign workers are taking on, under the same pay and terms? (Other than a particular company deciding they don't want UK workers?)

 

[chilango]

To me it's not a nationalist argument. If I am working somewhere and then told I am unable to work because they can someone else to do the same job for far less money than i was earning then i would be pissed off. It doesn't matter where those people came from, it's still wrong. Unless you believe in the idea of a completely unfettered free market.

Bolded the key bit.

EXACTLY.

It has nothing to do with their nationality at all.

 

[Fuchs66]

I would say that you are employed in Italy because you have a certain skill set that is not available from within the local populous. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

This only applies to non-EU foreign workers, as an EU citizen he, you, the Italians and I have the right to work in all EU states regardless.

 

[kyser_soze]

I would say that you are employed in Italy because you have a certain skill set that is not available from within the local populous. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
In the case of the current industrial action I would imagine that the skills these Italian workers have are readily available from UK workers. Therefore Total should have given the contract to a UK company. If a UK company cannot fulfill the requirements of Total (a French company) it should have been an express condition of the contract that UK workers be employed.

You really don't get it do you? Chilango is working in Italy because he applied for the job and got it, the same way he could apply for a job in the UK. It's fuck all to do with local labour pools on a national level. Since 1992 the whole of Europe is a single labour market.

That you don't get this is part of the problem.

 

[Fuchs66]

And is there any reason why a UK worker can't do the same contract work that the foreign workers are taking on, under the same pay and terms? (Other than a particular company deciding they don't want UK workers?)

no but for whatever reason the contract was awarded to the Italian company, cést la vie

 

[chilango]

I would say that you are employed in Italy because you have a certain skill set that is not available from within the local populous. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. In the case of the current industrial action I would imagine that the skills these Italian workers have are readily available from UK workers.

I'm not sure that I do.

But for whatever reason I'm seen as preferable to local labour.

Just as the Italians are seen as preferable to local labour in the case above.

Therefore Total should have given the contract to a UK company. If a UK company cannot fulfill the requirements of Total (a French company) it should have been an express condition of the contract that UK workers be employed.

Why?

 

[snadge]

Proof?

what do you mean proof?

Do a search on FGD's ( Flue Gas Desulpherisation Plant) there have been quite a few built around the world, mainly of AMEC or FLS Milijo design, both of whom I have worked for.

What proof do you want that the foreign workers are being paid less than would be paid to a blue book worker from the UK, the proof is in the pudding and the accommodation that is set up for them, the companies are using the UK laws to circumnavigate blue book agreements, this is WELL known and has been going on for years.

 

[teuchter]

I would say that you are employed in Italy because you have a certain skill set that is not available from within the local populous. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
In the case of the current industrial action I would imagine that the skills these Italian workers have are readily available from UK workers. Therefore Total should have given the contract to a UK company. If a UK company cannot fulfill the requirements of Total (a French company) it should have been an express condition of the contract that UK workers be employed.

But if the Italian workers are willing to work for less than UK workers (if this is in fact the case) then why should Total be expected to go for the more expensive option? They are operating in a competitive market - they aren't a charity.

It seems to me that if you want to protect existing high(er) rates of pay you either have to introduce a higher minimum wage UK-wide, or the unions have to start trying to operate on an EU-wide basis, although I'm not quite sure how that would work. You'd have to get workers to sign up to a union whose principle was that you don't take jobs for less than the current going rate in a specific geographical area, or something like that, surely.

Or you pull out of the EU and make laws against foreign workers taking jobs in the UK.

 

[butchersapron]

The workers aren't a charity either - why should be expected to swallow possible losses if the company won't? So you get class struggle - like this. It's that simple.

 

[teuchter]

The workers aren't a charity either - why should be expected to swallow possible losses if the company won't? So you get class struggle - like this. It's that simple.

Because that's what the current legal set-up allows.

If you think the legal/political set-up is flawed (which I'm sure you do) then you should be complaining about EU/UK government policy, not the companies that operate within the law.

 

[kyser_soze]

what do you mean proof?

Do a search on FGD's ( Flue Gas Desulpherisation Plant) there have been quite a few built around the world, mainly of AMEC or FLS Milijo design, both of whom I have worked for.

What proof do you want that the foreign workers are being paid less than would be paid to a blue book worker from the UK, the proof is in the pudding and the accommodation that is set up for them, the companies are using the UK laws to circumnavigate blue book agreements, this is WELL known and has been going on for years.

I'd want to see actual proof that these guys are earning less, rather than the speculation you're offering. You know, a payslip, or copy of their contracts detailing their earnings. You know, proof, evidence, paperwork.