Hundreds of workers protest against Italians/Foreigners 'taking jobs'...

[Stoat Boy]

Its irrelevant

Why ?

Now apologies if I come accross as being a bit dumb but I get confused by the British left. If I read them rightly then they dont like globalisation ? Yet seem to be saying that this issue of British workers being denied jobs in this country is irrelevant because its all a wider global struggle ? A sort of socialst globalisation ?

Or have I the wrong end of the stick ?

Surely local jobs for local people is a fundamental demand for the anti-globalisation movement ?

 

[Fuchs66]

So its xenophobic to think that its wrong for a company working in Britain to state that it will not employ British workers ?

Or am I missing something ?

Why should they? It's an Italian company working on a fixed term contract, what are they supposed to do sack all their Italian employees and take on British? Talk about International workers' unity, FFS!

 

[Divisive Cotton]

It seems to be spreading all over the place.

I thought the left here would be jumping up and down with joy now that the workers have gone out on strike against neo-liberalism

Personally, I'm quite sympathetic to their cause - bringing in 400 workers from Italy to do a job that local labour is quite capable of is going to stir serious resentment up.

Those on strike must have come to the conclusion (with ample justification) that they will be replaced tomorrow by labour that can be housed in barrack-style housing on a river

 

[strummerville]

The Italian workers are being exploited as much as the British ones. It would be great if they walked out and stood with demonstrators , but that 's unlikely to happen.

 

[Fuchs66]

Personally, I'm quite sympathetic to their cause - bringing in 400 workers from Italy to do a job that local labour is quite capable of is going to stir serious resentment up.

Those on strike must have come to the conclusion (with ample justification) that they will be replaced tomorrow by labour that can be housed in barrack-style housing on a river

It's not though, an Italian company has won a contract within the EU and is carrying out that contract with its own labour force which it is perfectly entitled to do.

If this is a problem maybe you should be questioning the reasons why it is so that companies from other EU states are more competative than those within the UK.

 

[Fuchs66]

The Italian workers are being exploited as much as the British ones. It would be great if they walked out and stood with demonstrators , but that 's unlikely to happen.

I doubt it, they are probably receiving the same if not more than what they would be earning in Italy, or have you been speaking with the Italian workers?

 

[chilango]

Why ?

Now apologies if I come accross as being a bit dumb but I get confused by the British left. If I read them rightly then they dont like globalisation ? Yet seem to be saying that this issue of British workers being denied jobs in this country is irrelevant because its all a wider global struggle ? A sort of socialst globalisation ?

Or have I the wrong end of the stick ?

Surely local jobs for local people is a fundamental demand for the anti-globalisation movement ?

Because if you stick with "local jobs with local people"one this will very easily be manipulated into "British jobs for British workers" and is an argument that plays into the hands of th right. who have no interest in taking the side of the worker.

Secondly its an argument where the solution is easy. Local workers work for competitive (lower) wages.

If we continue to frame the argument this way. We will lose.

 

[goldenecitrone]

It seems to be spreading all over the place.

I know. When I lived in Germany there were thousands of British builders undercutting the Germans with their shoddy workmanship.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

It's not though, an Italian company has won a contract within the EU and is carrying out that contract with its own labour force which it is perfectly entitled to do.

If this is a problem maybe you should be questioning the reasons why it is so that companies from other EU states are more competative than those within the UK.

I don't know. Like all migrant labour they live in poor housing conditions for less pay I presume.

Your basis of your argument is ridiculous "perfectly entitled to do" - it doesn't make it right.

 

[strummerville]

It's not though, an Italian company has won a contract within the EU and is carrying out that contract with its own labour force which it is perfectly entitled to do.

If this is a problem maybe you should be questioning the reasons why it is so that companies from other EU states are more competative than those within the UK.

This is where the EU liberal economic system falls down. It's not nationalist to expect people to have a right to work near to where they live. That is a basic right and workers should not expect to travel thousands of miles to take jobs from people who actually live in those areas, because they are cheaper labour. To argue that view is nationalist is wrong and is essentially a free market argument in favour of exploiting workers.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Also as well - don't forget this one... this Italian / Portuguese labour is now scab labour...

 

[chilango]

This is where the EU liberal economic system falls down. It's not nationalist to expect people to have a right to work near to where they live. That is a basic right and workers should not expect to travel thousands of miles to take jobs from people who actually live in those areas, because they are cheaper labour. To argue that view is nationalist is wrong and is essentially a free market argument in favour of exploiting workers.

What about commuters in Britain? How local is local?

Cornish miners undercut Welsh slate miners in the 19th c.

 

[where to]

Jerry Hicks a candidate in the forthcoming election for general secretary at Unite, sustained a fractured leg at a protest at the Staythorpe power station.

He said: “This should come as no surprise to anyone. The employers have deliberately and actively been looking for ways to exploit cheap labour while covering their eyes and ears to the growing rage of discontent and ignoring all the warning signs, it’s outrageous.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5616686.ece

 

[Divisive Cotton]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5616686.ece

But the British Chambers of Commerce warned that bringing in foreign based labour was likely to grow. David Frost, director general, said: “While I can understand the concerns about jobs, this issue is going to grow and grow because it is global capital and labour and it is not going to go away.”

A classic defence of neo-liberalism

 

[strummerville]

What about commuters in Britain? How local is local?

Cornish miners undercut Welsh slate miners in the 19th c.

Commuters argument is not the same because they are not taking jobs at the expense of others. And they are not being flown in from 1000's of miles to live 6 to a room on some sort of prison ship. You seem to be arguing in favour of neo liberal economics, basically the freedom of companies to employ the cheapest labour at any cost.

 

[kyser_soze]

This is where the EU liberal economic system falls down. It's not nationalist to expect people to have a right to work near to where they live. That is a basic right and workers should not expect to travel thousands of miles to take jobs from people who actually live in those areas, because they are cheaper labour. To argue that view is nationalist is wrong and is essentially a free market argument in favour of exploiting workers.

Not really, it's where the notion of Europe as a set of separate countries comes into play. This kind of migratory labour is commonplace in the US, because it's seen as a single entity by it's populace. Legally these Italian workers are identical to UK labour - they are not foreigners - they're just from a different state in Europe who speak a different language. As such this in a bizarre way is saying that they are just workers same as the Brits.

This is the essential problem that I've noticed with union response to European labour, going back to the 1990s and the first wave of recruitment agencies across EU/Eastern Europe but no unions out there. This desire to still see the EU as completely separate nations is bollocks, and it's this short sightedness which is catching up with people. The irony being that as cap globalises, it should also be easier to attain the kind of internationalism that any form of workers' struggle requires and yet, despite this being leftist doctrine it's been a completely missed opportunity for 20 years, and you're now left with pitiful economic nationalism and these tired arguments about how wanting to protect local jobs from 'foreigners' from Europe, when their legal status effectively makes them no different from 'local' workers...

 

[Fuchs66]

This is where the EU liberal economic system falls down. It's not nationalist to expect people to have a right to work near to where they live. That is a basic right and workers should not expect to travel thousands of miles to take jobs from people who actually live in those areas, because they are cheaper labour. To argue that view is nationalist is wrong and is essentially a free market argument in favour of exploiting workers.

Since when has this been a "basic right"?

Only thing I could find was:

Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

http://un.org/Overview/rights.html

Now if that was applied by the UK governement and employers for ALL workers within the UK maybe this wouldnt be such a problem.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Not really, it's where the notion of Europe as a set of separate countries comes into play. This kind of migratory labour is commonplace in the US, because it's seen as a single entity by it's populace. Legally these Italian workers are identical to UK labour - they are not foreigners - they're just from a different state in Europe who speak a different language. As such this in a bizarre way is saying that they are just workers same as the Brits.

This is the essential problem that I've noticed with union response to European labour, going back to the 1990s and the first wave of recruitment agencies across EU/Eastern Europe but no unions out there. This desire to still see the EU as completely separate nations is bollocks, and it's this short sightedness which is catching up with people. The irony being that as cap globalises, it should also be easier to attain the kind of internationalism that any form of workers' struggle requires and yet, despite this being leftist doctrine it's been a completely missed opportunity for 20 years, and you're now left with pitiful economic nationalism and these tired arguments about how wanting to protect local jobs from 'foreigners' from Europe, when their legal status effectively makes them no different from 'local' workers...

Well said, sir.

 

[Fuchs66]

Also as well - don't forget this one... this Italian / Portuguese labour is now scab labour...

No they're not, they're working on a fixed term construction contract seperate from the normal work of the refinery, IF the workers were taking the jobs of those permenently employed there this might be the case. Sounds like some here are really falling for the good old fashioned "divide and rule".

 

[Fuchs66]

Not really, it's where the notion of Europe as a set of separate countries comes into play. This kind of migratory labour is commonplace in the US, because it's seen as a single entity by it's populace. Legally these Italian workers are identical to UK labour - they are not foreigners - they're just from a different state in Europe who speak a different language. As such this in a bizarre way is saying that they are just workers same as the Brits.

Exactly and if their rights as workers are being abused this is due to UK national laws NOT the EU.

 

[Andy the Don]

Nobody want to comment on me "stealing Italian jobs" and sending all my tax back to the UK?

Well?

You working for an Italian or UK registered company..??

If its an Italian company they will be paying an taxation due to the Italian government. All this has come about because of the UK government has allowed foreign companies to buy up UK companies. It will only get worse. Bank of Santander own Abbey. Lets say they experience financial problems back in Spain. Where do you think they will make an staffing cuts, in the UK or Spain..??

 

[butchersapron]

If we continue to frame this in terms of nationality etc rather than bosses trying to set workers against worker in order to lower rates and conditions we're going nowhere.

 

[Fuchs66]

You working for an Italian or UK registered company..??

If its an Italian company they will be paying an taxation due to the Italian government.

Only if he's normally resident in Italy whether the company is UK, Italy or anywhere else in the EU based is irrelevant. The Italians will be paying tax in Italy because they will be resident in Italy and they are on a temporary contract within the EU. No problem

 

[kyser_soze]

BA^^^My point, but more succintly put.

 

[Fuchs66]

If we continue to frame this in terms of nationality etc rather than bosses trying to set workers against worker in order to lower rates and conditions we're going nowhere.

This I agree with, look to the root cause of this problem, not the symptoms.

 

[where to]

300 have walked out in Warrington now according to radio5.

 

[strummerville]

This I agree with, look to the root cause of this problem, not the symptoms.

I agree but then do you support the demonstrations? Should the Italian workers be encouraged to join them and direct the anger against the employers?

 

[chilango]

If we continue to frame this in terms of nationality etc rather than bosses trying to set workers against worker in order to lower rates and conditions we're going nowhere.

I keep saying this...

 

[Fuchs66]

I agree but then do you support the demonstrations? Should the Italian workers be encouraged to join them and direct the anger against the employers?

Not in the form they are taking ie the anger being directed at the Italian workers, I'm sure the protesters have managed to allienate their fellow workers to the point that they wouldn't join them anyway even if they felt they were being discriminated against.

 

[chilango]

Only if he's normally resident in Italy whether the company is UK, Italy or anywhere else in the EU based is irrelevant. The Italians will be paying tax in Italy because they will be resident in Italy and they are on a temporary contract within the EU. No problem

Quite.

Temp contract with a UK company in Italy.

Just like the Italians above.