Hundreds of workers protest against Italians/Foreigners 'taking jobs'...

[chilango]

s'complicated.

But probably pretty much the same way the Italians in the OP may pay tax in Italy.

 

[isitme]

your job is a bit different to this tho because(I'm assuming) the main reason they are hiring you is that you are a native english speaker or an expert on something, whereas in this case it's just to pay your workforce less

 

[chilango]

your job is a bit different to this tho because(I'm assuming) the main reason they are hiring you is that you are a native english speaker or an expert on something, whereas in this case it's just to pay your workforce less

Quite.

So the issue is nothing to with the nationality of the worker, but the attaempt by the bosses to pay lower wages.

Unfortunately this point looks like being utterly drowned in nationalism and protectionism.

 

[strummerville]

harsh words Snadge, having said that, I've scanned all the left wing blogs, etc, there is absolutely nothing on this two major days of walkouts, all illegal wildcats all one can see is about palestine. There seems to be a blanket refusal to acknowledge what is happening, I am genuinely interested to know why this is, is it too unpalatable?

This is really interesting. I've just checked the SWP and Socialist Party sites and absolutely nothing. Why? Do they not know how to respond? The BNP must creaming themselves.

 

[strummerville]

And the leading article on the BNP site http://bnp. org.uk/2009/01/massive-bnp-vote-in-newcastle/

This could turn very nasty.

 

[isitme]

Quite.

So the issue is nothing to with the nationality of the worker, but the attaempt by the bosses to pay lower wages.

Unfortunately this point looks like being utterly drowned in nationalism and protectionism.

it's not in anyone in powers interest to publicise this point tho

 

[chilango]

And the leading article on the BNP site http://bnp.org.uk/2009/01/massive-bnp-vote-in-newcastle/

This could turn very nasty.

Any chance you could break that link?

 

[chilango]

it's not in anyone in powers interest to publicise this point tho

No.

...and people ostensibly on the Left are falling for it hook, line and sinker.

 

[butchersapron]

couldn't wait to be self employed to rake it in, now you're fucked.

d'ya think there's a lesson to be learnt there?

Don't be so stupid - if you can't see that following the early 80s period of mass unemployment capital practically forced certain workers (from dying trad industries largely) into self-employment in order to bear most of the risks and costs of the less profitable areas of their business then you're living in the past. Automatically viewing the self-employed as being the enemy in 2008 is dinosaur bollocks.

 

[Fuchs66]

Yes an Italian based company working in the UK, using UK infastructure and importing staff at a lower rate to work in the UK, paying all taxes back to Italy (unless I have missed something with regards to paying UK tax). You can't see the problem with that? You can't see how things like this have a negative impact on local communities?

I'll just correct that:

Yes an EU company working in the EU, using EU infastructure and using their own staff at their normal rate to work in the EU, paying all taxes to an EU state. You can't see the problem with that? You can't see how things like this have a negative impact on local communities?

No, no problems there that I can see and I could see it having problems only in communities where xenophobia already is a problem

How about those in the financial sector who are residents of Monaco, earn obscene salaries in the UK and ferry the money out to tax havens?

Monaco is not an EU member state (despite close ties with the EU and France) so this is irrelevant

How about a UK company working in Africa importing British workers to work on the oil fields, and then exporting profit and tax back to the UK?

as far as I know there are no African states in the EU either so again irrelevant as far as this thread goes

 

[Stoat Boy]

Interesting to hear the coverage on Radio 4 this morning. Firstly they said that nobody from Labour, Conservative or the Lib Dems would put anybody up. Then they had some union offical from Unite. He started off by saying that he felt the company concerned where breaking the law because they had stated that they would not even consider using British labour but then went on to seemingly, and I concede that this may be my own interpretation, try and play down Gordon Browns speech at the conference in 2007 about British jobs for British workers.

Then it cut to a report from Davos with the Beebs reporter doing a propaganda job for globalisation, once again my own interpretation.

I do wonder how this is now going to play out. Perhaps its my murkey mind working over time but after giving the story some coverage last night the 10'clock news on BBC 24 led with the story of the trouble in Paris and never mentioned this dispute what so ever. Which does make me wonder about who is setting the agenda over this story.

 

[Fuchs66]

The factory management didn't care about the legality of the workers as that was down to the agent and the factory had full denial. Not that any bugger seemed to be checking anyway.

As I said I'll leave the debate to others but that's what was happening there and there is a fair chance it's the same thing in this case.

No it isn't at all, read my other posts

 

[goldenecitrone]

No, no problems there that I can see and I could see it having problems only in communities where xenophobia already is a problem

as far as I know there are no African states in the EU either so again irrelevant as far as this thread goes

The EU seems to bring out the Little Englander in many people. When the Tories get back in we can happily kick all the foreigners out again.

 

[Fuchs66]

Of course it's a scam, a legal one that only seems to be allowed in the UK.

The foreign workers are contracted to work a certain amount of hours, overtime payment doesn't come into it, Companies buy houses in the local towns and pile 5/6 into a house, they make a profit on the accommodation as well, alongside a tidy profit when the property is sold.


This is happening all over the country.

Then this is a problem with UK national law, NOT the EU and certainly NOT any foreign worker trying to earn a living within the UK, maybe the unions should redirect their protests somewhat.

 

[strummerville]

The EU seems to bring out the Little Englander in many people. When the Tories get back in we can happily kick all the foreigners out again.

Being anti EU doesn't automatically mean you're nationalist.

 

[Fuchs66]

Quite.

So the issue is nothing to with the nationality of the worker, but the attaempt by the bosses to pay lower wages.

Unfortunately this point looks like being utterly drowned in nationalism and protectionism.

Exactly and once more this has more to do with the UK's national laws rather than the EU or those "nasty" foreigners, people need to redirect their anger somewhere where it will actually bring about meaningful change

 

[Fuchs66]

Being anti EU doesn't automatically mean you're nationalist.

True, but reading some of the posts here it would seem the 2 sentiments go hand in hand for some.

 

[butchersapron]

It's not the laws, it's the relentless search to squeeze the workers for more profit that's the problem, that's what's behind the law.

 

[Fuchs66]

It's not the laws, it's the relentless search to squeeze the workers for more profit that's the problem, that's what's behind the law.

That's true and employers will always strive for maximum work and minimum costs, the problem with the UK is that the laws as they stand seem to encourage and aid this and this is not something where people should be looking outside of the UK for a solution.

 

[Stoat Boy]

Exactly and once more this has more to do with the UK's national laws rather than the EU or those "nasty" foreigners, people need to redirect their anger somewhere where it will actually bring about meaningful change

This is what I dont understand. Here we have workers seeing jobs being denied to their fellow country men and so they react by taking industrial action which is then, in turn, supported by their fellow workers.

What else is left to them to do ? I would guess that the areas involved are solid 'safe' Labour seats and its perfectly obvious that Labour have no intention of doing anything to help them so what else are they meant to do ?

How else can they 'redirect' their anger ? What course of action is open to them beyond the one they have taken ?

 

[Part 2]

Phone in on Radio5 this morning is about 'British Jobs for British Workers"

They had 3 strikers on. First fella who rang pointed out they should be directing their anger at the bosses and the globalisation practice that allows this to happen. They reacted angrily and made much of the union line that the company have made a statement that they would not employ British workers under any circumstances.



Appeared like they been hand picked to represent the xenophobic line the media will likely take on the whole issue.

 

[greenman]

This all needs to be put in context -
From my blog - Greenman's Occasional Organ

Events in France over the last 48 hours show that whatever the ruling class of Europe thought they could get away with in terms of making the ordinary people pay for the profligacy, recklessness and irresponsibility of the bankers (and their tame government stooges) is now seriously being questioned. This is immensely heartening.
After the people of Iceland showed what they felt and drove the neo-liberal government there from office - and Greek workers and farmers have used the example of their students and youth to go on the offensive against the capitalists - the general strike in France shows that the stakes are being raised. This crisis of capitalism gives immense opportunities, the likes of which have not been seen for a couple of generations, for a reshaping of the world into something where workers and ordinary people, not banks, corporations and corrupt politicians set the agenda.

The IMF report this week showed the scale of what is faced - and showed how in Britain this crisis is likely to be deeper, longer lasting and more consequential than elsewhere. Quite clearly this "recession" (the "D" word is still only hinted at) is said to be going to be worse than any of those of the 70s, 80s or 90s in Britain.

However, although it seems that it takes longer for the working class of Britain to rouse itself than in other parts of continental Europe, the ruling class here should not be complacent, things are beginning to move. The angry walk-outs over social dumping and job cuts that have sprung up this week are a sign of the new mood. Gordon Brown's attempt at whipping up nationalism and racism - "British jobs for British Workers" - is quoted back at him in a new and more dangerous (for him) context in relation to corporate plans to replace local labour.

Obviously there are dangers here also for the workers, in that little petty nationalists and fascists will see the nature of the dispute that has started in Lincolnshire and Teeside as a massive opportunity for the propagation of their ideas. However - the left and union activists should not allow this to happen - this is not an issue primarily about "National interest" or immigration, but about the capitalist class acting in its usual immoral and insensitive way to use working people as pawns in their money-making game. It is also about the labour laws of the new European Capitalist superstate that have been opposed in campaigns led by the likes of the RMT

Meanwhile, the ruling class fall to arguing amongst themselves - hurrah! - Obama (either because he does not see it as good PR at the moment or because he really is pursuing a different agenda) shuns the depressed elite jamboree at Davos and various others grandstand and stage walkouts there.

The opportunity is arising for raising more radical demands than it has been possible to get a hearing for for many a long year. These demands - that workers should not pay the price of the crisis, that economic democracy is something that should be taken seriously and explored, that politics should not be about swapping representatives of the same plutocratic class every few years that their inevitable corruption becomes blatant and that transition to a new "green" economy must be worker-led and socially just - can unite the disparate elements of the left and workers' organisations in Britain and begin to make the challenges that our European comrades are making. When this process gets going in enough countries we will begin to see the marvellous change in consciousness where huge masses of people begin to see that another world truly is possible.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

I watched the coverage on BBC 24 last night and first line of the presenter was... go on... have a guess... yep, you guessed right "We haven't seen scenes like this since the 1970s"

 

[Stoat Boy]

Phone in on Radio5 this morning is about 'British Jobs for British Workers"

They had 3 strikers on. First fella who rang pointed out they should be directing their anger at the bosses and the globalisation practice that allows this to happen. They reacted angrily and made much of the union line that the company have made a statement that they would not employ British workers under any circumstances.



Appeared like they been hand picked to represent the xenophobic line the media will likely take on the whole issue.

So its xenophobic to think that its wrong for a company working in Britain to state that it will not employ British workers ?

Or am I missing something ?

 

[Barking_Mad]

Nicky Campbell on Radio 5 this morning came straight from a report on this to talking to Robert Peston in Davos to say something along the lines of,

"Capitalism is human nature, we're naturally inclined to it..."

 

[chilango]

This is what I dont understand. Here we have workers seeing jobs being denied to their fellow country men and so they react by taking industrial action which is then, in turn, supported by their fellow workers.

What else is left to them to do ? I would guess that the areas involved are solid 'safe' Labour seats and its perfectly obvious that Labour have no intention of doing anything to help them so what else are they meant to do ?

How else can they 'redirect' their anger ? What course of action is open to them beyond the one they have taken ?

I've bolded the key bit.

As long as the issue is framed in a nationalist manner, then solutions posed will be nationalised ones (e.g. "British jobs for British workers") which of course are no solution at all as they miss the cause of the problem, which as Butchers pointed out above is the relentless drive by the bosses to get more labour for less cost. This is the essence of the class struggle and all the guff about nationality, cultural definitions of class and the whole raft of distractionary bollocks is exactly what they want.

 

[butchersapron]

NC said that or Peston?

 

[chilango]

So its xenophobic to think that its wrong for a company working in Britain to state that it will not employ British workers ?

Or am I missing something ?

Its irrelevant

 

[where to]

800 have walked out in Grangemouth:

Kenny Smith is one worker who has walked out at Grangemouth. He said they were not objecting to foreign workers being used.

He explained: "The objection is foreign companies clearly stating they will not start British workers on the job. We have no problems working with foreigners of any kind - we have Poles working here recently with us."

 

[newbie]

the flipside of this is that with the £-€ being what it is British skills are now much cheaper in Europe than previously- I know a number of high skill/high fee workers who are travelling to work abroad.

tbh it seems odd that this is happening now, given that the Italian firm was more competitive a few months ago.