Hundreds of workers protest against Italians/Foreigners 'taking jobs'...

[teuchter]

The workers aren't a charity either - why should be expected to swallow possible losses if the company won't? So you get class struggle - like this. It's that simple.

Do you reckon the Italian workers are in the wrong because they are accepting non-unionised jobs?

 

[kyser_soze]

or the unions have to start trying to operate on an EU-wide basis, although I'm not quite sure how that would work.

The unions should have been doing this 20 years ago.

 

[butchersapron]

Because that's what the current legal set-up allows.

If you think the legal/political set-up is flawed (which I'm sure you do) then you should be complaining about EU/UK government policy, not the companies that operate within the law.

No thanks, i think it's far more effective to act like this - clearly those who are most effected by it do too.

'should' - do me a favour.

 

[butchersapron]

Do you reckon the Italian workers are in the wrong because they are accepting non-unionised jobs?

That sort of response is not on my radar. The bosses trying to use cheap labour to undermine existing rates and condtions are 'in the wrong' - whether that's legal or not.

 

[snadge]

But if the Italian workers are willing to work for less than UK workers (if this is in fact the case) then why should Total be expected to go for the more expensive option? They are operating in a competitive market - they aren't a charity.

It seems to me that if you want to protect existing high(er) rates of pay you either have to introduce a higher minimum wage UK-wide, or the unions have to start trying to operate on an EU-wide basis, although I'm not quite sure how that would work. You'd have to get workers to sign up to a union whose principle was that you don't take jobs for less than the current going rate in a specific geographical area, or something like that, surely.

Or you pull out of the EU and make laws against foreign workers taking jobs in the UK.

There are already wage structures in place for construction workers, they are being circumnavigated by using foreign labour.


FFS all I can see on here is wankers saying that we should work for less, "to be competitive."

How many more times must my pay reduce for me to work, it has been steadily reduced for the past 15 years, now some construction workers are working 14hrs 7 days a week with no overtime bonuses and no expenses just to get a decent wage all due to the drip, drip of competitiveness.

The result of this being that UK workers will probably be allowed to work on these contracts BUT at the same rate of pay as the cheaper workers and with no expenses, halfing their wages once again, where will it stop.

As I said before, bring on the fucking call centres.

British contractors are fucked, a huge skill set destined to sell shit over the phone.

 

[zoltan]

I too would like to see what the wages are before making a decision on this - Unions are hardly new to xenophobic shit stiirring in the past and & to focus on the Italian workers is a bit iffy ( Italian "workers" - do Foreign workers count for less than UK workers ? - still being exploited and having to live in fuckin linconshire in barracks or whatever to makie a living is hardly the high life )

 

[Andy the Don]

That sort of response is not on my radar. The bosses trying to use cheap labour to undermine existing rates and condtions are 'in the wrong' - whether that's legal or not.

This - this is not about Italian workers it is about ensuring that UK workers are able to work to support themselves, their familes and their local communities. This is not demonising or persecuting these Italians, it is common sense. If the UK workers lose their jobs it will be the UK who will be supporting them and their families.

Would we see the same in any other EU country..?? No, they would not import a British workforce for this kind of contract, it would be a matter of national pride for the contract to be awarded to a company from their own country.

 

[teuchter]

FFS all I can see on here is wankers saying that we should work for less, "to be competitive."

It's not a matter of "should" - it's an inevitable result of opening up a labour market to workers who, for whatever reason, are prepared to work for less.

What is your proposed solution, to stop this happening?

 

[Andy the Don]

British contractors are fucked, a huge skill set destined to sell shit over the phone.

And once that skill set is lost you do not get them back, they are gone forever. When these skills are gone who will train the future generation..??

 

[Fuchs66]

I too would like to see what the wages are before making a decision on this - Unions are hardly new to xenophobic shit stiirring in the past and & to focus on the Italian workers is a bit iffy ( Italian "workers" - do Foreign workers count for less than UK workers ? - still being exploited and having to live in fuckin linconshire in barracks or whatever to makie a living is hardly the high life )

Thing is are they being exploited by living in barracks? I lived in caravans whilst on contracts in different parts of Germany and I loved it mainly due to the fact that I was still being paid money for hotel accomodation without knowing their exact pay and conditions to say they are being exploited is just speculation.

 

[teuchter]

This - this is not about Italian workers it is about ensuring that UK workers are able to work to support themselves, their familes and their local communities. This is not demonising or persecuting these Italians, it is common sense. If the UK workers lose their jobs it will be the UK who will be supporting them and their families.

Would we see the same in any other EU country..?? No, they would not import a British workforce for this kind of contract, it would be a matter of national pride for the contract to be awarded to a company from their own country.

Essentially you are saying you want the inequality of wealth between the UK and other nations to continue, because it is in the interest of UK residents.

 

[snadge]

I'd want to see actual proof that these guys are earning less, rather than the speculation you're offering. You know, a payslip, or copy of their contracts detailing their earnings. You know, proof, evidence, paperwork.

What so some Italian bod is going to give me a payslip, don't be stupid.

Is the company going to give me a copy of a contract, once again don't be stupid

Use some common sense instead, if they are being paid the blue book rate why go to the expense of housing them in specially transited barges on the river, if they were on blue book rate they would receive daily lodging expenses at the correct rate of £29.


As in Staythorpe, who's foreign workers are also housed on site ( Polish and Spanish) it has been revealed to the strikers that the company employing is NOT subject to the blue book agreement.

 

[zoltan]

This - this is not about Italian workers it is about ensuring that UK workers are able to work to support themselves, their familes and their local communities. This is not demonising or persecuting these Italians, it is common sense. If the UK workers lose their jobs it will be the UK who will be supporting them and their families.

Would we see the same in any other EU country..?? No, they would not import a British workforce for this kind of contract, it would be a matter of national pride for the contract to be awarded to a company from their own country.

Ship repair contracts in the baltic german ports & much of Holland is based in imported Polish expertise & labour - often more highly qualified & experienced than their local counterparts - Paid german level wages IIRC, but their productivity is much greater

 

[snadge]

Thing is are they being exploited by living in barracks? I lived in caravans whilst on contracts in different parts of Germany and I loved it mainly due to the fact that I was still being paid money for hotel accomodation without knowing their exact pay and conditions to say they are being exploited is just speculation.

LOL yes they are, they do not receive blue book agreed pay because accommodation is provided, it is the "get out clause" if you will.

 

[Andy the Don]

Essentially you are saying you want the inequality of wealth between the UK and other nations to continue, because it is in the interest of UK residents.

No what I am saying is that I want these high end contracts together with the high skill jobs they create to go to UK companies that employ UK workers, both of which will pay tax to the UK treasury. If that makes me some BNP wannabe in your mind that's your problem.

 

[kyser_soze]

So no, you don't have any actual proof, just hearsay and assumption.

 

[Zachor]

That sort of response is not on my radar. The bosses trying to use cheap labour to undermine existing rates and condtions are 'in the wrong' - whether that's legal or not.

Agree there. Its not as if you have workers volunatarily going to the companies and saying 'I'll do that job for you better and cheaper than this other guy' which is understandable natural competition. This is s concerted effort by extremely wealthy companies to drive down wages involuntarily.

To be frank at a time of racial, religious and social tension the last thing we need to happen is companies doing shit like this. Its like handing the fash seats in councils and maybe parliament on a plate. Apart from that its wrong.

 

[teuchter]

No what I am saying is that I want these high end contracts together with the high skill jobs they create to go to UK companies that employ UK workers, both of which will pay tax to the UK treasury. If that makes me some BNP wannabe in your mind that's your problem.

You want an end to the free labour market within the EU, is what you are saying.

It doesn't really make you a BNP wannabe - more of a UKIP wannabe, I would say.

 

[snadge]

So no, you don't have any actual proof, just hearsay and assumption.

I have seen a Polish Babcocks welders payslip at Longannet Power Station last year with his £5 per hour deduction for accommodation on a lower rate than would be paid to me.

No he wouldn't give it to me and he was very happy with that amount with all his food and lodging paid for.

If it is not true, why go to the expense of towing barges up the river for them to stay on, why build contractor camps on site for them to live in?







Get real, this IS happening and there IS going to be trouble.

 

[kyser_soze]

Don't you get it? I'm not saying it's true or untrue, what I'm asking is that someone provide some proof of the case being stated.

 

[snadge]

Don't you get it? I'm not saying it's true or untrue, what I'm asking is that someone provide some proof of the case being stated.

I give up.

 

[kyser_soze]

What, you give up because someone is asking for proof that these Italians are being paid less than they should be before offering overall support? That I'm supposed to take something on trust?

 

[snadge]

The Staythorpe Project has defined rates of pay under a national agreement for the engineering construction industry (NAECI) so there will be no savings on employment costs.

There is the proof and how they can lie and say there will be NO saving is beyond me.

Employers and trade unions alike are well aware of the issues that took place at Cottam Power Station where labour was utilised from Hungary and it was discovered that those Hungarian workers were being paid well under the rates of the NAECI National Agreement. This understandably caused outrage with the UK employees on that site and resulted in stoppages of work to ensure that the Hungarian workers were paid the same rates.

http://www.amicustheunion.org/Default.aspx?page=9069

 

[teuchter]

What, you give up because someone is asking for proof that these Italians are being paid less than they should be before offering overall support? That I'm supposed to take something on trust?

Assuming they are being paid less, do you feel that the UK workers are justified in taking action? How do you think the situation should be resolved?

 

[kyser_soze]

Assuming they are being paid less, do you feel that the UK workers are justified in taking action? How do you think the situation should be resolved?

Yes I do, and that action should include involving the Italians by making the point that they are being underpaid for the work based on UK guidelines for the work.

I have no preference for how the situation should be resolved.

 

[kyser_soze]

http://www.amicustheunion.org/Default.aspx?page=9069

Again, that's not this site or relevant to this situation, is it? Surely AMICUS will be able to provide proof of these assertions?

 

[snadge]

Again, that's not this site or relevant to this situation, is it? Surely AMICUS will be able to provide proof of these assertions?

Jesus wept, this is current, Staythorpe is also being picketed, it is TOTALLY relevant.

 

[kyser_soze]

Don't you get it, still? Had anyone got any actual evidence of pay being undercut?

 

[teuchter]

Yes I do, and that action should include involving the Italians by making the point that they are being underpaid for the work based on UK guidelines for the work.

But why would the Italians want to join demands calling for this, if the likely result would be that it would no longer be in the interests of the employers to employ them, and they would have to return to Italy to be paid even less?

 

[snadge]

Don't you get it, still? Had anyone got any actual evidence of pay being undercut?

The Staythorpe Project has defined rates of pay under a national agreement for the engineering construction industry (NAECI)

There are several levels on the NAECI pay grades, they are paying foreign workers cat4 now which is agricultural worker so not 'technically" breaking the agreement, the pay should be cat1 and cat2 for all workers on a new steel project.