Hundreds of workers protest against Italians/Foreigners 'taking jobs'...

[kyser_soze]

But why would the Italians want to join demands calling for this, if the likely result would be that it would no longer be in the interests of the employers to employ them, and they would have to return to Italy to be paid even less?

That's an argument for solidarity the UK workers have to make with their Italian bothers, not me.

Does that mean they pay the agreed rate or less?

You tell me. You're the one making the statement about them uncercutting local workers.

Look, I don't doubt that they are being paid less, what I'd like to see is some actual evidence of this, something no one seems able to provide.

E2a - just seen your edit, fine and you know that they're being paid cat4 how?

 

[treelover]

Chilango says some on the left on here, have 'swallowed it hook line and sinker', is this a smear

What people like Durruti, and myself and Baldwin(am i endorsing him!) and recently Snadge have been saying is that you can't have the sort of breackneck globalisation that the UK has seen, one of the most open economies in thhe world without dislocation. Something like this was predictable here in the UK, particualrly as the labour movement and the left are so weak here. The left is disconnected fom the fears and desires of most working class people, i remember being amazed when there were some construction workers on the Lebanon demo here, turns out they were Polish! The earlier warning was the Petrol Dispute, when wildcats with no organic links to the wider but diminished labour movement broke out. One has to wonder how this will pan out?, it is only going to get bigger and there really doesn't seem to an effective response from progressives, the left, etc. Calling them xenophobes, nationalists, etc, won't work, and the BNP seem to be more welcome on the picket lines than anyone else, its not a good situation and people may get physically hurt, some of the areas involved have been 'seething with resentment for years'

no answers here.

 

[treelover]

You are far to kind to the scum who are striking

Theirs is an openly racist call for british jobs for british workers. As internationalists, we should not give a fig if it is so called british or so called foreign workers are in a particlau job. If jobs on offer were given to foreigners, so what? If this action suceeds, its open season for a general pogrom against foreign workers, with employers being put under pressure to sack foreign workers in favour of british ones. This is where this road leads

It is our generations Imperical Typewriters strike

I think the first action is to expel any shop stewards involved here forthwith, and for the union leaders to condemn this strike

http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=3494#comments

Usual level of sophistication from Jim Page and he wonders why the Far Right are growing!

 

[kyser_soze]

1. TL, you're dealing with a situaiton that's been in existance since 1992 when the European Single Market came into force, meaning that anyone in an EU country could work in any other without a visa

2. There was no uniion push in the 1990s to expand their sphere of influence into other countries, of linking up with European unions to ensure that there was the possibility of EU wide best practice for all workers.

3. The fact that no one in the UK labour movement, nor it seems a huge chunk of people on Urban, have recognised this in nearly 20 years is no ones fault but their own. Here's a simple fact - the bosses have managed to pit workers against workers who exist in the same labour pool. Who's the ultimate winner?

 

[snadge]

That's an argument for solidarity the UK workers have to make with their Italian bothers, not me.



You tell me. You're the one making the statement about them uncercutting local workers.

Look, I don't doubt that they are being paid less, what I'd like to see is some actual evidence of this, something no one seems able to provide.

E2a - just seen your edit, fine and you know that they're being paid cat4 how?

cat4 pay comes with the proviso of "on site accommodation" thus living expenses don't need to be paid also.

 

[kyser_soze]

So because they've got accomodation, they are therefore working on the Cat4 payscale?

Fine, that's good enough for me.

 

[teuchter]

That's an argument for solidarity the UK workers have to make with their Italian bothers, not me.

Well, indeed.

And to me it seems that any anger directed at the foreign workers should also be directed at any UK workers who take on non-unionised jobs, or work that is paid at less than whatever someone has decided is an acceptable rate.

 

[snadge]

Well, indeed.

And to me it seems that any anger directed at the foreign workers should also be directed at any UK workers who take on non-unionised jobs, or work that is paid at less than whatever someone has decided is an acceptable rate.

It has been but agency work put paid to that.

 

[chilango]

Chilango says some on the left on here, have 'swallowed it hook line and sinker', is this a smear

What people like Durruti, and myself and Baldwin(am i endorsing him!) and recently Snadge have been saying is that you can't have the sort of breackneck globalisation that the UK has seen, one of the most open economies in thhe world without dislocation. Something like this was predictable here in the UK, particualrly as the labour movement and the left are so weak here. The left is disconnected fom the fears and desires of most working class people, i remember being amazed when there were some construction workers on the Lebanon demo here, turns out they were Polish! The earlier warning was the Petrol Dispute, when wildcats with no organic links to the wider but diminished labour movement broke out. One has to wonder how this will pan out?, it is only going to get bigger and there really doesn't seem to an effective response from progressives, the left, etc. Calling them xenophobes, nationalists, etc, won't work, and the BNP seem to be more welcome on the picket lines than anyone else, its not a good situation and people may get physically hurt, some of the areas involved have been 'seething with resentment for years'

no answers here.

A smear?

How is it a smear?

I'll get back to the rest of what you say in a bit...but if you could justify or retract your accusation of me "smearing" that would be nice. Ta.

 

[steve0223]

The way this dispute pans out isn’t set in stone and socialists need to be prepared to argue our own politics against nationalist illusions and not reject what’s happening as hopelessly reactionary. Socialists argue that people’s attitudes and politics change through struggle even if they start of with reactionary opinions. We should have confidence in our own arguments.

Here is a great article on the situation that doesn't dismiss the workers concerns as racist, and refuses to endorse nationalistic arguments

 

[JimPage]

Quite simply, the strikers are reactionary scumbags making racist demands, who i am quite content to be sacked ont he spot. Britsh jobs for british workers- yeah right

The biggest shame in the local unions which have pandered to racism rather than confronting it

This has the potential to be our Imperial Typewriters dispute, liek Leicester in 1974

http://bnp. org.uk/2009/01/grimsby-oil-refinery-workers-strike-over-influx-of-foreign-workers/

BNP already supporting the scum.

 

[Random]

Quite simply, the strikers are reactionary scumbags making racist demands, who i am quite content to be sacked ont he spot. Britsh jobs for british workers- yeah right

The biggest shame in the local unions which have pandered to racism rather than confronting it

This has the potential to be our Imperial Typewriters dispute, liek Leicester in 1974

http://bnp. org.uk/2009/01/grimsby-oil-refinery-workers-strike-over-influx-of-foreign-workers/

BNP already supporting the scum.

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=276152

 

[kyser_soze]

I think it's a fairly easy argument to make once you get it into people's heads the reality of the European labour market having no borders for anyone.

Good article BTW steve

The protests and strikes at the moment seem to be viewing unemployment in the industry as some sort of local problem caused by foreign labour. This isn’t the case. There have been massive job losses all across Europe and sending migrant workers ‘home’ won’t do anything to alter this in a global economic slowdown.

 

[treelover]

I'll get back to the rest of what you say in a bit...but if you could justify or retract your accusation of me "smearing" that would be nice. Ta.

retracted, clearly a misunderstanding

 

[treelover]

2. There was no uniion push in the 1990s to expand their sphere of influence into other countries, of linking up with European unions to ensure that there was the possibility of EU wide best practice for all workers.

@KS,

where do you get that one from, there have been union and TUC offices, lobbyists in Brussels for many years, and of course there was the battle for the Social Chapter.

 

[treelover]

btw, i notice not one of our SWP posters has commented on all this, I wonder why, not with the programme, is it?

 

[JimPage]

btw, i notice not one of our SWP posters has commented on all this, I wonder why, not with the programme, is it?

SW editorial last week roundly condemned economic nationalism like this

 

[kyser_soze]

@KS,

where do you get that one from, there have been union and TUC offices, lobbyists in Brussels for many years, and of course there was the battle for the Social Chapter.

That has nothing to do with what I've said.

Where were the TU offices set up in Eastern Europe next to the employment agencies that grew fat on commissions on worker's wages who knew no better, other than 'You'll be working in the UK and earning 30 times what you can here, and be accomodated'?

Where are the EU wide agreements between fraternal unions that match the reach of EU employment laws and how they are implemented nationally?

This is what I'm talking about. Lobbying Brussels and Westminster for the social chapter was only ever going to be half the story. More to the point, the social chapter was signed by the rest of the EU before the UK signed up to all it's tenets, specifically WRT the minimum wage.

Where was the EU wide union agreement that no worker shall undercut a fellow worker in another EU nation? There isn't one.

 

[chilango]

retracted, clearly a misunderstanding

Thank you.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Quite simply, the strikers are reactionary scumbags making racist demands, who i am quite content to be sacked ont he spot. Britsh jobs for british workers- yeah right

The biggest shame in the local unions which have pandered to racism rather than confronting it

This has the potential to be our Imperial Typewriters dispute, liek Leicester in 1974

http://bnp. org.uk/2009/01/grimsby-oil-refinery-workers-strike-over-influx-of-foreign-workers/

BNP already supporting the scum.

Appaling post. The radio has carried reports from strikers highlighting their appreciation that this isn't about the workers country of origin but rather their terms and conditions. Writing off all the strikers (and by inference their supporters?) as reactionary racist scumbags is guaranteed to close down the chance of discussing the real issues that are threatening construction workers in the UK, Italy, Portgual and elsewhere.

Louis MacNeice

p.s. Jim just go and have a read of the comments on the BNP's own site re. this dispute and see how your appreciation of what is going on chimes in with their idea of how the left sees the strikers.

 

[JimPage]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5617015.ece



Simon Darby (BNP) blog reports as follows

"Unconfirmed reports now coming in to us of workers at South Hook and Dragon Liquified Natural Gas plants in Milford Haven starting to down tools. Staythorpe construction workers (Nottingham) and at Motherwell Bridge considering action also. "


http://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/news/Mass-walkout-over-foreign-worker.4931304.jp
Grangemouth and Fife

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...ntre-of-foreign-staff-protest-91466-22817149/
Wales too

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/merseyside/7860394.stm
Widnes

 

[Divisive Cotton]

JimPage, those comments are fucking disgusting. People like you on the left are the problem, not the solution. Please go away and retire from politics.

 

[chilango]

Chilango says some on the left on here, have 'swallowed it hook line and sinker', is this a smear

What people like Durruti, and myself and Baldwin(am i endorsing him!) and recently Snadge have been saying is that you can't have the sort of breackneck globalisation that the UK has seen, one of the most open economies in thhe world without dislocation. Something like this was predictable here in the UK, particualrly as the labour movement and the left are so weak here. The left is disconnected fom the fears and desires of most working class people, i remember being amazed when there were some construction workers on the Lebanon demo here, turns out they were Polish! The earlier warning was the Petrol Dispute, when wildcats with no organic links to the wider but diminished labour movement broke out. One has to wonder how this will pan out?, it is only going to get bigger and there really doesn't seem to an effective response from progressives, the left, etc. Calling them xenophobes, nationalists, etc, won't work, and the BNP seem to be more welcome on the picket lines than anyone else, its not a good situation and people may get physically hurt, some of the areas involved have been 'seething with resentment for years'

no answers here.

The problem is that in disputes like this, it very quickly becomes a nationalistic issue.

The base issue, that of the conflict between labour and capital is sidelined as a parochial protectionism is wheeled out.

This issue has nothing to do with nationality.

It has everything to do with bosses seeking to maximise profitiablity.

The key issue is still, as it has always been, "more work, less money" for the workers.

As soon as we bring the idea of "British Jobs for British workers" (or the kindler, gentler version: "local jobs for local workers") we have lost.

We are no longer addressing the cause.

As I said above this logic leads to a position of even if we were to scceed in protectionist goals we would end up with competitive i.e. lower wages, conditions etc.

That the terrain of the argument is shifted to nationalism, then it is to the advantage of the right the bosses and the racists.

That we allow ourselves to lose sight of the most basic element of the class struggle is an unmitigated disaster to our prospects.

 

[snadge]

Quite simply, the strikers are reactionary scumbags making racist demands, who i am quite content to be sacked ont he spot. Britsh jobs for british workers- yeah right

Fuck off tossbag.

What does it take for the left to get off their racism mantra.

Previously NAECI agreed rates of pay across the board, regardless of nationality is what is being fought for.

By paying foreign workers less money and charging them for food and secured accommodation the companies are saving a fortune, there is also the local knock on effects to the local small businesses, BnB's that rent out cheap rooms to the contractors, local pubs and shops all suffer.

 

[chilango]

Fuck off tossbag.

What does it take for the left to get off their racism mantra.

Previously NAECI agreed rates of pay across the board, regardless of nationality is what is being fought for.

By paying foreign workers less money and charging them for food and secured accommodation the companies are saving a fortune, there is also the local knock on effects to the local small businesses, BnB's that rent out cheap rooms to the contractors, local pubs and shops all suffer.

Here is my problem...why didn't you write:

By paying workers less money and charging them for food and secured accommodation the companies are saving a fortune, there is also the local knock on effects to the local small businesses, BnB's that rent out cheap rooms to the contractors, local pubs and shops all suffer...

why highlight that they are foreign?

what does that have to do with the battle?

 

[kyser_soze]

Do you know what the real irony is, this is a genuine opportunity to get EU-wide worker's solidarity in a massive industry, something the strikers seem to really actually be getting, unlike peeps like jimpage and the AMICUS and UNITE bosses.

 

[JimPage]

Appaling post. The radio has carried reports from strikers highlighting their appreciation that this isn't about the workers country of origin but rather their terms and conditions. Writing off all the strikers (and by inference their supporters?) as reactionary racist scumbags is guaranteed to close down the chance of discussing the real issues that are threatening construction workers in the UK, Italy, Portgual and elsewhere.

Louis MacNeice

p.s. Jim just go and have a read of the comments on the BNP's own site re. this dispute and see how your appreciation of what is going on chimes in with their idea of how the left sees the strikers.

Look, if you failt to say, as the Uniosn shoudl be , that foreign workers are welcome here, to live and work, its a slippery slope to sacking foreign workers and replacing them with british ones. For Internationalists, a workers place of origin is irrelevant

These strikers, despite what they say, want British Jobs for British Workers- and that is a racist sentiment

 

[JimPage]

Fuck off tossbag.

What does it take for the left to get off their racism mantra.

Previously NAECI agreed rates of pay across the board, regardless of nationality is what is being fought for.

By paying foreign workers less money and charging them for food and secured accommodation the companies are saving a fortune, there is also the local knock on effects to the local small businesses, BnB's that rent out cheap rooms to the contractors, local pubs and shops all suffer.

Go away, racist troll

 

[Mr Moose]

That sort of response is not on my radar. The bosses trying to use cheap labour to undermine existing rates and condtions are 'in the wrong' - whether that's legal or not.

Makes it simple for the benefit of some of you who are in doubt.

It not unlikely that a large company will receive some sort of favourable incentives from local government to undertake large projects. In return 'social benefit' is expected, for instance in partnership to identify local jobseekers with the skills or potential to do the jobs.

A company that deliberately seeks not to employ locals to drive down wages is parasitic on that area. End of.

 

[JimPage]

JimPage, those comments are fucking disgusting. People like you on the left are the problem, not the solution. Please go away and retire from politics.

Why? Cant you get it that Racism and Nationalism are at the heart of the workers arguement here.

Pandering to these racist arguements in exactly the reason why the BNP got 27% in Newcastle last night