Hundreds of workers protest against Italians/Foreigners 'taking jobs'...

[kyser_soze]

Just as the UK was allowed to set different immigration rules for the EE ascension countries - there are caveats and clauses all over, and I'm not surprised the French (you forgot to mention the Spanish health service doing the same to UK and DE nationals, altho they're being more specific in saying that those with chronic conditions on arrival won't be covered for 5 years) are doing this - in the case of retirees, we're exporting some pretty expensive patients onto what is an already massively overstretched health service (most EU health services are in bigger financial holes than the NHS).

However, it still doesn't alter the very basic fact that as an EU citizen I can move anywhere within the 25 and get a job, which is rather the point at hand in this discussion.

 

[Cobbles]

Also in your daft analogy, you omitted the fact that for the comparison to work at all, you'd have had to have had an agreement with a local kitchen builder (or whatever it was) that you wouldn't take on anyone else on inferior terms and conditions. And then you'd have had to renege on that agreement.

Why would anyone want to sign a pitifully stupid agreement like that - what benefit would I get up front from the local builder to justify a lock-in?

 

[kyser_soze]

not dead at all, just changed in strategic and tactical methods is all. The point is still the same - to support workers of whatever country to secure economic and political justice, without doing so at the expense of any other worker of whatever country. Workers should not be used to undermine others' terms and conditions whether they are from Turin or Todmorden.

Agreed, and you've got what I meant by dead here anyway. What I mean is that instead of seeing the EU as an 'international' it should be seen as it is, a national labour market, just as the US is.

 

[treelover]

Mutleys on line, lets hear your view?

 

[belboid]

Why would anyone want to sign a pitifully stupid agreement like that - what benefit would I get up front from the local builder to justify a lock-in?

an irrelevant question, in one way. Whether you think the company should have or not doesn't matter, the fact is they did.

Tho the fact that it would be a rather silly thing for an individual to do, but not for a massive, multi-billion pound profit-making, tens of thousands of workers employing, company just shows why yours was a stupid analogy.

 

[TomPaine]

However, it still doesn't alter the very basic fact that as an EU citizen I can move anywhere within the 25 and get a job, which is rather the point at hand in this discussion.

I wasn't arguing that (although there are areas where this isn't 100% true), I was arguing the point you made about all EU nationals being equal or whatever it was a few pages back. Merely pointing out this isn't the case and these divisons will be played upon by employers who can use them for their benefit. Also to further that argument, with regards to healthcare, people here where not complaining that the tax money would be sent back to Italy as we are "all part of the EU" and it is "EU infastructure", by that reasoning the health care services in France should be open to UK retiress regardless then if it is "EU" healthcare not French?

 

[Fuchs66]

No you do not. That is factually wrong. Each country is different. E.g. for those who retire to France before they are 65...

http://www.perigordvacance.com/2007/10/french-health-c.html

From the above link, regarding a letter written to our own government (Alan Johnston), so can see the letter and response in full:

Of course each country is different, I didn't say you could expect equal treatment throughout the EU, what can be expected is the same treatment that a national of that country could expect. Just because the UK has free health treatment ánd therefore has to provide this to EU nationals who become residents of the UK does not mean that this should be expected elsewhere within the EU.

 

[TomPaine]

what can be expected is the same treatment that a national of that country could expect.

Which that post above of mine demonstrates to be a fallacy. A unemployed Frenchman gets the health care, a retired British resident does not.

 

[Fuchs66]

Which that post above of mine demonstrates to be a fallacy. A unemployed Frenchman gets the health care, a retired British resident does not.

because the unemployed Frenchman fulfils the requirements of the health system within France an EARLY retired EU citizen from another EU state does not, a retired person over 65 does however. This is however healthcare within the EU and not much to do with the OP.

 

[kyser_soze]

I wasn't arguing that (although there are areas where this isn't 100% true), I was arguing the point you made about all EU nationals being equal or whatever it was a few pages back.

My point, which like almost everyone elses on this thread you've missed, was with specific reference to the labour market, and since we're talking specifically about a member of the EU which has even longer membership than the UKs, your attempts to obfuscate this basic point with technical caveats centred around side issues (voting, healthcare) and specific legislation allowed to the new ascension states with reference to things like owning farms is even more tragic.

 

[TomPaine]

My point, which like almost everyone elses on this thread you've missed, was with specific reference to the labour market, and since we're talking specifically about a member of the EU which has even longer membership than the UKs, your attempts to obfuscate this basic point with technical caveats centred around side issues (voting, healthcare) and specific legislation allowed to the new ascension states with reference to things like owning farms is even more tragic.

If you can not see how all of this is linked, I'm at a loss. No attempt at obfuscation on my part, and to deny that owning farms is not part of the labour market is of course wrong.
The legislation that say you can work in any of the countries, you are correct in stating is applied to ALL EU citizens, no argument on my part there. However this does not mean all workers have equal rights within EU member states as I am trying to demonstrate. Therefore to seperate the issues of workers healthcare and politcal representation from the argument for example implies that all workers are equal which is not the case, as only some legislation that applies to working/workers rights is contained in the laws governing the labour market.

 

[JimPage]

http://bnp. org.uk/2009/01/solidarity-with-the-construction-lads/

More on BNP activities and what line they are spinning

 

[TomPaine]

Anyway kyser, I think what we can agree on is this risk getting out of control and the wrong targets in this risk getting hurt.

 

[TomPaine]

Workers are also angry at the pro-immigration, out-of-touch internationalism of many left-wing union leaders. Derek Simpson, general secretary of Unite is a particular target of well-deserved criticism after his ridiculous statement that “it’s not a question of foreign workers” and his treacherous suggestion that the union doesn’t mind its members being replaced by foreign workers as long as they get a chance to ‘compete’ before being thrown out of work!

When the BNP have stuff like this in their articles, you have to worry. This is exactly the kind of stuff they will be pedling to gain support. The Union leaders etc. need to make a strong stand and take leadership of this and not leave it to the BNP.

 

[Dissident Junk]

Now this is an interesting angle....

Bobby Buirds, a regional officer for Unite in Scotland, said the workers at Grangemouth were striking to protect British jobs.

"The argument is not against foreign workers, it's against foreign companies discriminating against British labour," he said. "If the job of these mechanical contractors at INEOS finishes and they try and get jobs down south, the jobs are already occupied by foreign labour and their opportunities are decreasing. This is a fight for work. It is a fight for the right to work in our own country. It is not a racist argument at all."

Guardian article on strikes

This is very, very interesting: that some are perceiving this as foreign companies discriminating against the British.

Oh dear....I got a sinking feeling about all this.

 

[Stoat Boy]

When the BNP have stuff like this in their articles, you have to worry. This is exactly the kind of stuff they will be pedling to gain support. The Union leaders etc. need to make a strong stand and take leadership of this and not leave it to the BNP.

I dont get it about this whole internationalism bit. The left has taken a right spanking over the last couple of decades so surely if they want to rebuild then it has to be by going back to the grass-roots of the movement in this country and starting off by making themselves the champion of the 'ordainary' working person again ?

And with these protests there is obviously, once again, appetetite for this sort of direct industrial action.

I just fail to understand how some of the left can be so dismissive. If they had a large amount of support from the working classes for their internationalism then fair enough but all I see is primarily a cadre of middle class activists looking to hijack other agendas such as the enviromental movement and that of Islamic extremism.

Yet when you get a seemingly genuine outburst of working class anger at what is unbridled capaitalist exploitation some of them cannot get away from it all quick enough.

And then they moan about the BNP doing well. There is a vacum in terms of who white working class people look to for representation of their interests. And the BNP seem to offer the only organised group willing to fill it.

 

[rover07]

I doubt the BNP are involved.

The whole 'we dont want foriegn workers' is the usual shit reporting by the media. Its about workers who have relied on work from Total being sidelined by the company. They are naturally angry.

 

[TomPaine]

And then they moan about the BNP doing well. There is a vacum in terms of who white working class people look to for representation of their interests. And the BNP seem to offer the only organised group willing to fill it.

That pretty much sums up how a lot of people see the situation.

 

[Dissident Junk]

Actually, this is all getting extremely interesting.

There's a comment over on CIF about this that makes a startling point.

I'm puzzled; as a member of the EU, we must allow free access to our jobs market for any EU citizen.

But this is the point: the British workers are EU workers too and they have no access to these jobs.

How is this not against EU law, or at least the spirit of EU law? There might be legislation that says you don't have to hire locals before EU nationals, but that is very different to saying you refuse to hire certain EU nationalities at all.

 

[purplex]

That would be the case if they were being employed by a British company, they aren't! If you read the article an Italian company won a contract in what is after all a European market and brought over their own people, which they are perfectly entitled to. The workers will be paying income tax on their earnings, probably (depending on the length of the job) in Italy as is their right in the EU. TBH it looks like the unions are jumping on the xenophobic, lets blame the foreigners band wagon, a very nasty development IMO.

auf wiedersehen pet

 

[cantsin]

Still absolutely nothing on the SWP website, just Gaza, so much for 'efficient' democratic centralism, the comrades are also absent here, waiting for the party line?,

so, so transparent

why are you so concerned about what the frickin SWP have to say ffs, these are workers taking their own action , they don't need you or anyone else worrying about who's going to '' "harness " their anger as you put it earlier , don't need student paper sellers or bureaucrats stamping out the fires , and any paper thin ideas about poorly paid foreign workers being the problem , not the bosses and bankers , will be swept aside if this builds over the next six months .

you carry on gloating about the perceived failures of the left here all you like matey boy, it 'd what you do , but doesn't worry me, + very much doubt it'll be worrying those fighting for their livelihoods / futures .

 

[danny la rouge]

I doubt the BNP are involved.

Of course not, but they'll get involved.

This is the biggest spontaneous worker-led strike in years. It's caught the unions on the hop. What are they doing? Do they know how to respond?

It's frustrating to be out of the loop with the details of this dispute. Things I want to know: - are the Italian workers unionised? - have the strikers sought representations with the Italian workers? - when the California-based firm, Jacobs, won the contract, what were the terms? - what were the unions doing then? - did they seek commitments on employment, wage levels, etc? - how were the jobs filled by the subcontractor? And so on.

 

[Fuchs66]

Now this is an interesting angle....



Guardian article on strikes

This is very, very interesting: that some are perceiving this as foreign companies discriminating against the British.

Oh dear....I got a sinking feeling about all this.

You and me both, I think you'd find an Italian company as with companies in most EU countries, would welcome equally qualified, native English speakers, the only problem is the fact that very few British workers speak other EU languages, which is usually also a requirement. I know that it has been fairly easy for me to get jobs in Germany as a qualified, bilingual British person.

 

[Fuchs66]

How is this not against EU law, or at least the spirit of EU law? There might be legislation that says you don't have to hire locals before EU nationals, but that is very different to saying you refuse to hire certain EU nationalities at all.

BUT the British and the Italian workers are EU nationals and have EQUAL rights of employment within the EU, the Italian company won the contract and brought their own workforce with them for understandable reasons.

 

[Dissident Junk]

Jeez, they got these Italian and Portugese workers sleeping on barges moored off Grimsby docks!

That's Victorian, and rings a bell somewhere.

 

[rover07]

Of course not, but they'll get involved.

This is the biggest spontaneous worker-led strike in years. It's caught the unions on the hop. What are they doing? Do they know how to respond?

It's frustrating to be out of the loop with the details of this dispute. Things I want to know: - are the Italian workers unionised? - have the strikers sought representations with the Italian workers? - when the California-based firm, Jacobs, won the contract, what were the terms? - what were the unions doing then? - did they seek commitments on employment, wage levels, etc? - how were the jobs filled by the subcontractor? And so on.

Nail and head.

As usual the media do not report what the background to the strike is. Very frustrating. The fact that it has spread so quickly means its about wider company/worker relations. (imo) The foreign worker angle is a red herring.

 

[where to]

How is this not against EU law, or at least the spirit of EU law? There might be legislation that says you don't have to hire locals before EU nationals, but that is very different to saying you refuse to hire certain EU nationalities at all.

most EU nations opted out of parts of the free employment market. Germany in particular iirc, opted out of the whole thing.

when it came to Bulgaria and Romania joining the EU a couple of years ago, the UK put up greater restrictions after so many people had come over from the other new EU nations (Baltics, Poland etc) since their 2004 ascension.

so the first statement you quoted, that any EU worker has the right to any UK job, is false - Bulgarians and Romanians do not have an equal rights to all UK jobs.

 

[Fuchs66]

Jeez, they got these Italian and Portugese workers sleeping on barges moored off Grimsby docks!

That's Victorian, and rings a bell somewhere.

You ever stayed on a floatel? They aren't so bad, but it's by the by where they are kipping I'm sure it's included in their contract which we know absolutely nothing about.

 

[Fuchs66]

most EU nations opted out of parts of the free employment market. Germany in particular iirc, opted out of the whole thing.

when it came to Bulgaria and Romania joining the EU a couple of years ago, the UK put up greater restrictions after so many people had come over from the other new EU nations (Baltics, Poland etc) since their 2004 ascension.

so the first statement you quoted, that any EU worker has the right to a UK job, is false - Bulgarians and Romanians do not have an equal rights to all UK jobs.

Correct but the restrictions are time limited eventually the new member states will have the same rights as the rest of us. IMO a good thing.

 

[purplex]

Any worker expecting favours from a private company is kidding themselves. Their obligation is to their shareholders, not their employees. Whether you believe that is morally repugnant is largely irrelevant, time and again private companies have fucked over their "loyal employees", and theyll do it again. Its quite ridiculous to think that that loyalty is returned, it never is. Plenty of Brits benefit from European labour laws and that has to be a two way street.