Hundreds of workers protest against Italians/Foreigners 'taking jobs'...

[frogwoman]

All I know is that this sort of action strikes me as a genuine response to fears people have about their every day lives.

And if you lot on the left dont harness it for something positive then the BNP will.

Yep, I am a [insert insult here] Tory but its stuff like this scares the shit out me because its a battle ground that the left have to beat the BNP on.

this.

 

[Dan U]

Can you prove this statement? No, because it's a lie. UK companies are perfectly capable of winnning overseas contracts in the EU and they do.

You, however, seem to be mistaking some place in your head for the actuality of the EU labour market, which is that it is a single entity, and every worker in the EU can move around it and find work.

in this very industry British firms have for years been major players and exporters of knowledge, skills etc.

 

[TomPaine]

Don't you get it? In the context of the EU labour market the 'internationalism' concept is dead - it's a single labour market, essentially a single country. So it's not an amorphous concept, it's a very, very real issue that you don't seem to be able to get your head around.

Kyser> Sorry but that is not exactly true. The EU does not operate like that, that is for the large part an illusion. For example those Italian workers should they say be here for the next 5 years could not vote for an MP and have no direct say in the situation that takes place in London via the democratic process. Residents of EU countries are exposed to all sorts of protectionism based on the fact they are NOT a citizen of the EU country they are residing in.
I have some very good examples from Poland for example if you want the links?

This is exactly why this whole concept of EU this EU that is a bunch of shite. The EU acts as a way of enforcing the labour laws that allow companies to employ cheap labour across Europe, it does not break down protectionism within the EU making ALL workers equal. Companies employing cheap labour and shipping it to another country have the added bonuses of not only can the local MP representing the workers NOT be voted in by them, for the large part these workers are isolated by language and their billited housing from the local community.
In many nations they can not access the health care system for example.

Where my comments about Monaco come into play which I mentioned to Fuchs are also relevant. There is absolutly nothing stopping a company CEO in Europe getting a tax break/lower operating costs in one nation (or in some cases bribing) setting up their HQ there, grabbing a load of workers, taking them to another EU nation, paying them less and also exposing them to a situation where they do NOT have the same rights as local workers. Then taking all the tax revenue back to said nation (where they pay less) and taking the profit, dumping it in Monaco where they can live the high life and then still acess the EU on their door step.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

The key aspect of it that infuriates workers is not that the contract was won by an Italian company, but the fact that workers in the immediate area, despite having the experience and qualifications, cannot even apply for the 400 or so jobs that have been created.

Surely people can at least understand the sense of raging injustice that this produces?

 

[tbaldwin]

Because if you stick with "local jobs with local people"one this will very easily be manipulated into "British jobs for British workers" and is an argument that plays into the hands of th right. who have no interest in taking the side of the worker.

Secondly its an argument where the solution is easy. Local workers work for competitive (lower) wages.

If we continue to frame the argument this way. We will lose.

So your against British jobs for British workers then?
What is the opposite of that? And doesnt that play into the hands of the right who have no interest in taking the side of the worker?

People on the Left really need to get real when it comes to understanding the effects of economic migration.

 

[snadge]

Both TP and DC are correct.

But it is still being labelled by the left as racist.

Wankers.

 

[Dissident Junk]

Public spending never "has" to be slashed, there's always some fucking excuse.

In any case, I seriously doubt that the tiny amount of tax revenue that would be generated by a few hundred foreign manual labourers is going to have a signifigant impact on a situation where public spending has supposedly been slashed to the point where rubbish is piling up in the streets.

I don't know what you mean by 'always some fucking excuse', but believe you me, the state of the UK government books at present and future predictions over tax receipts and public spending liabilities is seriously unstable. At the height of the recent boom, government was still overspending by over 40 billion a year and the majority of receipts comes from income tax, NI and VAT -- nigh on 61 percent.

These are classic areas where recession hits receipts. With the waves of redundancies we have seen in just the last six months (in only the open chords of this depression) and the increased pressure on social protection budgets from that, public spending will have to reduce and taxes will have to rise -- and I suspect we will see the need to cut public spending by significant amounts by Q1 2010.

You can't spend what you aint got.

It's not just about tax revenue from Italian labourers, but the cost to the State of unemployed nationals. If a private UK firm employs a national, he/she pays tax to the exchequer. If a private UK firm employs a non-national, he/she may still pay UK tax, but the state then has to pay for social protection for the national who is now unemployed.

In essence, if that non-national is paid below going rates, the State bears the burden of the drive for increased profit from that UK firm.

The answer to this would be to use EU structures to redistribute labour revenue and liability across member states at the same level as national government distributes across UK regions, and reduce national government receipts to only, say, VAT, property, sales and sin -- ie. more of a US federal model, complete with centrally fixed IRs and central economic policy (as they already have in the Euro zone).

But the political consequences of such a move might be *ahem* rather explosive. And, already, there are problematic consequences of central IRs and membership of the Euro within the Euro zone. Germany is refusing to play ball, and centrally-fixed IRs haven't been too good for some EU countries. The Greek riots are partially an outcome of economic stress due to the adoption of euro in Greece. There will be issues in Spain (because it can't devalue anymore and has had its credit rating downgraded) and Ireland before long. Already, there are labour and liability issue in Italy (which is pretty fked cos, I believe, Italy sold its NI stream to investors - a nice opportunity to default there).

In Bloom, you might not like it, I might not like it, but at the end of the day, it is always about protecting wealth, that is what changes people politically -- for a corporation, for an SME, for an individual, for a government. People are kind and ethical and nice in times of plenty; in times of famine, they can turn into something else entirely.

 

[belboid]

The key aspect of it that infuriates workers is not that the contract was won by an Italian company, but the fact that workers in the immediate area, despite having the experience and qualifications, cannot even apply for the 400 or so jobs that have been created.

Surely people can at least understand the sense of raging injustice that this produces?

No one (other than Jim Page) is disagreeing with that, are they?

 

[Cobbles]

The key aspect of it that infuriates workers is not that the contract was won by an Italian company, but the fact that workers in the immediate area, despite having the experience and qualifications, cannot even apply for the 400 or so jobs that have been created.

Surely people can at least understand the sense of raging injustice that this produces?

What "injustice"? - it's a private commercial contract.

If I tender to have a bathroom renovated and choose a contractor who decides to do the job using a gang of Polish workmen they they have under contract, should I expect a load of knobs to start prancing outside my door bleating that I should have only employed "locals"?

 

[belboid]

But it is still being labelled by the left as racist.

Wankers.

Really? Overwhelmingly that isn't the case at all.

 

[_angel_]

Kyser> Sorry but that is not exactly true. The EU does not operate like that, that is for the large part an illusion. For example those Italian workers should they say be here for the next 5 years could not vote for an MP and have no direct say in the situation that takes place in London via the democratic process. Residents of EU countries are exposed to all sorts of protectionism based on the fact they are NOT a citizen of the EU country they are residing in.
I have some very good examples from Poland for example if you want the links?

This is exactly why this whole concept of EU this EU that is a bunch of shite. The EU acts as a way of enforcing the labour laws that allow companies to employ cheap labour across Europe, it does not break down protectionism within the EU making ALL workers equal. Companies employing cheap labour and shipping it to another country have the added bonuses of not only can the local MP representing the workers NOT be voted in by them, for the large part these workers are isolated by language and their billited housing from the local community.
In many nations they can not access the health care system for example.

I seem to remember reading on here, someone saying their local GPs would not register their Portugeuse housemate/ friends on account of them not being in the country long enough and being originally from out of the UK. I didn't even think that sort of thing was allowed (refusal to take someone on)

Where my comments about Monaco come into play which I mentioned to Fuchs are also relevant. There is absolutly nothing stopping a company CEO in Europe getting a tax break/lower operating costs in one nation (or in some cases bribing) setting up their HQ there, grabbing a load of workers, taking them to another EU nation, paying them less and also exposing them to a situation where they do NOT have the same rights as local workers. Then taking all the tax revenue back to said nation (where they pay less) and taking the profit, dumping it in Monaco where they can live the high life and then still acess the EU on their door step.

 

[belboid]

What "injustice"? - it's a private commercial contract.

If I tender to have a bathroom renovated and choose a contractor who decides to do the job using a gang of Polish workmen they they have under contract, should I expect a load of knobs to start prancing outside my door bleating that I should have only employed "locals"?

oh, okay DC, there is always one prick!

Yup, you should expect to be abused, and worse cobbles. And not only because of your would be employment practises

 

[snadge]

What "injustice"? - it's a private commercial contract.

If I tender to have a bathroom renovated and choose a contractor who decides to do the job using a gang of Polish workmen they they have under contract, should I expect a load of knobs to start prancing outside my door bleating that I should have only employed "locals"?

so you wouldn't be bothered they were getting paid peanuts and slept and ate on the job? ie they moved into your house until the job was done.

 

[Dissident Junk]

I seem to remember reading on here, someone saying their local GPs would not register their Portugeuse housemate/ friends on account of them not being in the country long enough and being originally from out of the UK. I didn't even think that sort of thing was allowed (refusal to take someone on)

An EU migrant can only access free GP NHS services if they intend to settle in the UK, ie. be resident for six months or more. If not, they will be treated as private patients.

However, an EU migrant who is a student studying at a registered institution gets free NHS medical care.

 

[_angel_]

I love the way many 'liberals' contrast these 'hard working immigrants' with 'lazy indigenous dolies',

.

But these are people trying to avoid ending up on the dole, surely?

 

[_angel_]

An EU migrant can only access free GP NHS services if they intend to settle in the UK, ie. be resident for six months or more. If not, they will be treated as private patients.

However, an EU migrant who is a student studying at a registered institution gets free NHS medical care.

That's total shit. I just assumed they had something like the E1 11 or whatever that means you can get free treatment abroad.

 

[kyser_soze]

Kyser> Sorry but that is not exactly true. The EU does not operate like that, that is for the large part an illusion. For example those Italian workers should they say be here for the next 5 years could not vote for an MP and have no direct say in the situation that takes place in London via the democratic process. Residents of EU countries are exposed to all sorts of protectionism based on the fact they are NOT a citizen of the EU country they are residing in.
I have some very good examples from Poland for example if you want the links?

For the purposes of getting a job, I have equal access to employment across the EU. I wasn't talking about services such as health, nor was I talking about voting rights. That some countries add protectionist legislation at a local level that I might have to overcome (which all EU nations do, for example, in terms of working for government for example) is irrelevant - I can work, visa free, in any of the 25. This, therefore, is the labour pool that people are working in.

 

[kyser_soze]

That's total shit. I just assumed they had something like the E1 11 or whatever that means you can get free treatment abroad.

You do know that the NHS actually pays the overseas provider for the service? So it's not 'free treatment'. And you'd have similar issues trying to access GP, rather than A&E, care pretty much everywhere in the EU if you're only staying in country for 6 months.

 

[belboid]

you get free emergency treatment with the EHIC (as the E111 now is), but not GP services

 

[Fuchs66]

In many nations they can not access the health care system for example.

Where my comments about Monaco come into play which I mentioned to Fuchs are also relevant. There is absolutly nothing stopping a company CEO in Europe getting a tax break/lower operating costs in one nation (or in some cases bribing) setting up their HQ there, grabbing a load of workers, taking them to another EU nation, paying them less and also exposing them to a situation where they do NOT have the same rights as local workers. Then taking all the tax revenue back to said nation (where they pay less) and taking the profit, dumping it in Monaco where they can live the high life and then still acess the EU on their door step.

The first part is incorrect, you have the same access to the health system of the country you live in within the EU as nationals of that country. You also have the same rights as nationals as far as work is concerned, if these rights are lacking or companies choose to ignore them that is another problem.

Monaco and the existance of tax havens in general is a completely different problem and nothing to do with this thread, I am against tax havens BTW where ever they are located.

 

[kyser_soze]

Which, given that the GP you're signing up to, would then have to apply for your medical records from your last GP (or equivalent) on the contintent, the procedure for which varies from country to country, is only fair IMO. If you're coming to the UK with a chronic condition you should arrange insurance if you're intending to stay less than 6 months.

 

[_angel_]

you get free emergency treatment with the EHIC (as the E111 now is), but not GP services

It's a long time since I've been anywhere. I assumed you could get some gp services, but then, if you're only on holiday I expect it probably would class under 'emergency only'.

 

[belboid]

It's a long time since I've been anywhere. I assumed you could get some gp services, but then, if you're only on holiday I expect it probably would class under 'emergency only'.

lots of places have walk in clinics where anyone can go, but there's often a fee for them

 

[Dissident Junk]

That's total shit. I just assumed they had something like the E1 11 or whatever that means you can get free treatment abroad.

There's a difference between getting free NHS GP services, ie. registering as an NHS patient at a GP surgery, and emergency NHS healthcare though.

The EHIC (the new E1 11) doesn't actually guarantee you free at point of access healthcare in other countries, it gives you access to the same state provided healthcare as the citizens of that country and in some countries, they pay for certain services.

And it is an 'emergency' card for use by travellers and holiday-makers, you can't use it if you are resident in another EU country.

 

[Cobbles]

so you wouldn't be bothered they were getting paid peanuts and slept and ate on the job? ie they moved into your house until the job was done.

So long as the work is carried out correctly according to the specification in the tender, then no. My contract is with the building contractor and who I choose to carry out that contract is no business of the gardener, chauffeur or any other of my employees on my site.

Just like the Lindsey refinery........

from the BBC Report:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7859968.stm

"Unite regional officer Bernard McAuley told Friday's rally in Lincolnshire: "There is sufficient unemployed, skilled labour wanting the right to work on that site and they are demanding the right to work on that site."

How does he know whether there are any suuitably skilled locals? Did Unite bid for the business and submit a tender response?

 

[treelover]

Still absolutely nothing on the SWP website, just Gaza, so much for 'efficient' democratic centralism, the comrades are also absent here, waiting for the party line?,

so, so transparent

 

[gosub]

For the purposes of getting a job, I have equal access to employment across the EU. I wasn't talking about services such as health, nor was I talking about voting rights. That some countries add protectionist legislation at a local level that I might have to overcome (which all EU nations do, for example, in terms of working for government for example) is irrelevant - I can work, visa free, in any of the 25. This, therefore, is the labour pool that people are working in.

European Law does enshrine your rights in doing so, as it does for Investment funds and companies as they have in various legal cases been lumped as single entities with the same set of individual rights. Unions on the other hand aren't, they are constrained by national laws and therefore geocentric. they can only be force for nationalistic tendencies.

Racism and Nationalism need not be synonymous.

 

[TomPaine]

The first part is incorrect, you have the same access to the health system of the country you live in within the EU as nationals of that country.

No you do not. That is factually wrong. Each country is different. E.g. for those who retire to France before they are 65...

http://www.perigordvacance.com/2007/10/french-health-c.html

From the above link, regarding a letter written to our own government (Alan Johnston), so can see the letter and response in full:

As you are aware, the French have changed their domestic rules on eligibility for healthcare services for people who are not working. Some people, including those retiring to France from other European countries (including the UK) and who are not yet in receipt of a state pension, will no longer be covered by the French system and will need to take out private health insurance until they reach UK retirement age or until they qualify as a French resident (which is after five years of regular uninterrupted residence).

Kyser:

You also have the same rights as nationals as far as work is concerned, if these rights are lacking or companies choose to ignore them that is another problem.

Once again this is an iffy statement. If you wanted to move to Poland and open a farm up, you could have problems.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj24n3/cj24n3-6.pdf

This will come to an end, but the Poles where permitted to keep this law for 12 years. So in theory that Italian company could not buy a large area of land in Poland, ship in Italian workers and farm the land shutting out locals.

 

[belboid]

try reading the full report and the full thread dear cobbles. There are hundreds of workers who were not available for this contract when it was originally won by the Italian firm, because they already had work. They don't have tat work any more.

Also in your daft analogy, you omitted the fact that for the comparison to work at all, you'd have had to have had an agreement with a local kitchen builder (or whatever it was) that you wouldn't take on anyone else on inferior terms and conditions. And then you'd have had to renege on that agreement.

 

[belboid]

Still absolutely nothing on the SWP website, just Gaza, so much for 'efficient' democratic centralism, the comrades are also absent here, waiting for the party line?,

so, so transparent

did you only post this thread so you could have a pop at 'the left'? cos that's pretty much all you've done since the op.

so, so transparent. and fucking tedious