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Hundreds of workers protest against Italians/Foreigners 'taking jobs'...

The old 'foreign workers are shit' argument. I heard that so often in Germany, how rubbish the Brits were at building anything. Shoddy brickwork, not like proper German builders. Pure xenophobia. :D

I didn't say that, I said the worker had lesser training, with the proper training he could be as good as me and have ASME9 6G certification which is the norm on structural jobs, but certification has been downgraded for certain jobs and even structural jobs are now classed under the lower B.S.

meaning that my ASME9 is only required on certain jobs whereas it used to be the norm, now a six week course suffices and you are going to get big snagging lists.
 
All I know is that this sort of action strikes me as a genuine response to fears people have about their every day lives.

And if you lot on the left dont harness it for something positive then the BNP will.

Yep, I am a [insert insult here] Tory but its stuff like this scares the shit out me because its a battle ground that the left have to beat the BNP on.
 
Fuchs> Changing all those words to "EU" misses the point completly, and yes there is a big fucking problem with that. The EU is not a single government where everyone pays taxes centrally. If you can not see the problem with the way the EU is structured then I dispear. The whole thing is a god damn mess.
The comments about Africa and Monaco are relevant, try looking at the bigger picture please as well. Just because we are "in" the EU does not mean suddenly everything they do is OK.
Unless you think that it is OK for the country to not have a say on membership and hand over money/infastructure willy nilly?

The EU seems to bring out the Little Englander in many people. When the Tories get back in we can happily kick all the foreigners out again

Oh dear you aren't one of those are you? Shutting the argument down with a comment that essentially calls somebody expressing an anti-EU opinion as racist by proxy...
 
All I know is that this sort of action strikes me as a genuine response to fears people have about their every day lives.

And if you lot on the left dont harness it for something positive then the BNP will.

Yep, I am a [insert insult here] Tory but its stuff like this scares the shit out me because its a battle ground that the left have to beat the BNP on.

hammer, nail, head.
 
Post By Nick Griffin on this all on BNP website

"This grass-roots movement by British workers in defence of British workers has the potential to spread like wildfire. We need all BNP and Solidarity members and supporters working in refineries, power stations (the Truth Truck got a great reception from the thousands of workers streaming in to Sellafield in Cumbria this morning) and on construction sites generally to raise with their workmates the idea of sympathetic walkouts. Spread the word!

The combination of the news of industrial action against imported scab labour in East Lindsey, and the 300% surge in the BNP vote in Newcastle, will make Thursday 29th January a key date in the coming victory of our brand of moderate but uncompromising nationalism".


So. Fucking. What.

They are so opportunist that if you looked hard enough you could find a BNP quote to support anything.
 
wait untill the welfare reforms kick in and some of the poorest incur benefit sanctions, eg cuts, they will then look around for scapegoats, etc.

Of course they will.

That is why we have to be very very clear in not giving them credence.
 
Both Unite unions, T&G and Amicus DO have the kind of cross-european deals you are talking about. Both are members of a variety of bodies, not least the European TUC, which work together to stop incidences such as his from taking place. part of the formation of Unite was explicitly on the basis of becoming a union that could go europe wide, which is why there are also talk of merger with unions in germany and the US.

Union officers are also being set up in Eastern Europe as well, and they have been for the last few years. When the Single European Market came in there was a legal right for anyone to move anywhere to work, but it wasn't that widely taken up. Most Euro countries had broadly similar wages and standards of living, so the likelihood of large groups of migrant workers moving cross-borders wasn't likely to happen, and didn't. Portuguese, Greek and Irish workers did have significantly lower incomes, and there was some thought that some workers from those countries might travel, but the first two lots were always likely to go somewhere more Mediterranean than the UK, so 'we' weren't that bothered (and it didn't happen that much anyway), and the Irish had had the right to travel for ever anyway, so that wasn't any change.

It was only when the EU expanded eastwards that it became an issue. I think the number of migrant workers from those countries took everyone by surprise, and the unions weren't ready to deal with it, and hadn't thought strategic plans through enough. That was recognised during the last expansion, so more union work as done in the 'home' countries, including setting up of officers etc.

As to the EU wide union agreement no worker shall undercut a fellow worker in another EU nation, there isn't a formal one because that is a principal of trade unionism, it doesn't require an explicit document or motion saying so. Tho I am also not sure how it is relevant here, as these italian workers haven't been brought in by, or with the support of, any italian (or other) union.

Fair points - it just seems/ed like this was all coming as a bolt from the blue. I'd also say that there not being a formalised agreement is exactly the sort of thing that is missing.
 
Of course they will.

That is why we have to be very very clear in not giving them credence.

as long as they don't meet people like Jim Page shouting racist at them and hoping they lose there jobs because they react in a way that isn't 100% to his liking.
 
@DC

It's the same on Indymedia, anti-fa types just going on about the BNP, nothing about the import of the strike which is becoming massive and historical for good or bad,
 
Fuchs> Changing all those words to "EU" misses the point completly, and yes there is a big fucking problem with that. The EU is not a single government where everyone pays taxes centrally. If you can not see the problem with the way the EU is structured then I dispear. The whole thing is a god damn mess.
The comments about Africa and Monaco are relevant, try looking at the bigger picture please as well. Just because we are "in" the EU does not mean suddenly everything they do is OK.
Unless you think that it is OK for the country to not have a say on membership and hand over money/infastructure willy nilly?
...

Sorry but I dont think it misses the point at all, in fact I think the fact that both the UK and Italy are EU member states IS the point.
 
I didn't say that, I said the worker had lesser training, with the proper training he could be as good as me and have ASME9 6G certification which is the norm on structural jobs, but certification has been downgraded for certain jobs and even structural jobs are now classed under the lower B.S.

meaning that my ASME9 is only required on certain jobs whereas it used to be the norm, now a six week course suffices and you are going to get big snagging lists.

Not from you, from my German friends. You'd think they'd lost a war or something. :)
 
Chilano said
Of course they will.

That is why we have to be very very clear in not giving them credence.



But that is my point, the left, radicals and others have done fuck all on the reforms and then they will go around telling some of the most fucked people in the UK they are wrong.
 
as long as they don't meet people like Jim Page shouting racist at them and hoping they lose there jobs because they react in a way that isn't 100% to his liking.

Note that I have not accused anyone of being racist.

It is a major concern though that some here are allowing the argument to fall comfortable into terrain that will both aid actual racists and cause the workers' goals to be lost anyway.

We must not give an inch to the divide and rule tactic, nor must we pander for one second to nationalistic distractions, and we have to try and win this argument.
 
But that is my point, the left, radicals and others have done fuck all on the reforms and then they will go around telling some of the most fucked people in the UK they are wrong.

If some of the workers are arguing for "Britsh Jobs for British Workers" or similar then they are wrong.

Wrong and doomed to defeat.

Thus it is our responsibilty to always bring the argument back to the real issue and not pander to the right.
 
All I know is that this sort of action strikes me as a genuine response to fears people have about their every day lives.

And if you lot on the left dont harness it for something positive then the BNP will.

Yep, I am a [insert insult here] Tory but its stuff like this scares the shit out me because its a battle ground that the left have to beat the BNP on.

And if the hard left are wibble on about the racism of the strikers and do not see that these are people desperate to keep their jobs. They are just shooting themselves in the foot whilst showing the hard right an open goal and the hard right being very apt to exploit any opportunity will not miss that opportunity. The hard left has to make a choice do they support UK workers in their fight to keep their jobs or do they care more for about some amorphous concept of internationalism. I bet that if these workers had called for wildcat strikes over the Israeli actions in Gaza the hard left would have supported them 100%.
 
The hard left has to make a choice do they support UK workers in their fight to keep their jobs or do they care more for about some amorphous concept of internationalism. I bet that if these workers had called for wildcat strikes over the Israeli actions in Gaza the hard left would have supported them 100%.

Don't you get it? In the context of the EU labour market the 'internationalism' concept is dead - it's a single labour market, essentially a single country. So it's not an amorphous concept, it's a very, very real issue that you don't seem to be able to get your head around.
 
Note that I have not accused anyone of being racist.

It is a major concern though that some here are allowing the argument to fall comfortable into terrain that will both aid actual racists and cause the workers' goals to be lost anyway.

We must not give an inch to the divide and rule tactic, nor must we pander for one second to nationalistic distractions, and we have to try and win this argument.

i agree with you.#
 
All I know is that this sort of action strikes me as a genuine response to fears people have about their every day lives.

And if you lot on the left dont harness it for something positive then the BNP will.

Yep, I am a [insert insult here] Tory but its stuff like this scares the shit out me because its a battle ground that the left have to beat the BNP on.

not all of the "the left " are necessarily there soley to "harness " workers resentment Tory Boy , though it's interesting to hear such a naked class analysis from your side - SWP /Union Bureacrats etc take note , you're not doing your job properly , get those workers "harnessed " , Tory Boy's scared !
 
Fair points - it just seems/ed like this was all coming as a bolt from the blue. I'd also say that there not being a formalised agreement is exactly the sort of thing that is missing.

I'm really not sure what difference it would make (tho am very happy to be convinced otherwise). It would make the argument ever so slightly easier I suppose, tho as Snadge (I think) pointed out, these workers seem to have been taken on on what are officially 'approved' terms, terms which are being bent by the bosses.

I haven't seen anything about the Italian workers being members of an Italian (or other) union, so quite what effect any formal agreement would have doesn't seem to be relevant, unfortunately.
 
not all of the "the left " are necessarily there soley to "harness " workers resentment Tory Boy , though it's interesting to hear such a naked class analysis from your side - SWP /Union Bureacrats etc take note , you're not doing your job properly , get those workers "harnessed " , Tory Boy's scared !


But he's right.
 
Don't you get it? In the context of the EU labour market the 'internationalism' concept is dead - it's a single labour market, essentially a single country. So it's not an amorphous concept, it's a very, very real issue that you don't seem to be able to get your head around.

not dead at all, just changed in strategic and tactical methods is all. The point is still the same - to support workers of whatever country to secure economic and political justice, without doing so at the expense of any other worker of whatever country. Workers should not be used to undermine others' terms and conditions whether they are from Turin or Todmorden.
 
Don't you get it? In the context of the EU labour market the 'internationalism' concept is dead - it's a single labour market, essentially a single country. So it's not an amorphous concept, it's a very, very real issue that you don't seem to be able to get your head around.


No its not, the EU labour market if it was a level playing field, would be an excellent idea. Where are the British companies winning contracts in EU countries? There are none because these countries would rather award these contracts to companies domiciled in their own country.
These non-UK workers employed by non-UK companies will not be paying their taxes into an EU treasury, they will be paying into their own countries treasury. Their own country will be getting the revenue whilst the UK will be paying benefits to the equally skilled UK workers who have not got a job.
 
not dead at all, just changed in strategic and tactical methods is all. The point is still the same - to support workers of whatever country to secure economic and political justice, without doing so at the expense of any other worker of whatever country. Workers should not be used to undermine others' terms and conditions whether they are from Turin or Todmorden.

Quite.

This has nothing to do with "countries" at all.

...and everything to do with bosses screwing two sets of workers.
 
From the BBC HYS
Workers of the world unite?TUC forgotten this?what about all the Brits abroad in Europe, Spain etc?if British workers weren't so greedy companies wouldn't employ 'foriegners', taking our jobs? most of those on the dole aren't even looking for jobs while getting it handed on a plate. We're all immigrants at the end of the day, our ancestors travelled here too.Please, British workers, do not pander to the BNP rantings and petty racism.



I love the way many 'liberals' contrast these 'hard working immigrants' with 'lazy indigenous dolies',

er, not i don't, its dangerous stuff and the poster who then goes on about the BNP clearly doesn't get the irony.
 
No its not, the EU labour market if it was a level playing field, would be an excellent idea. Where are the British companies winning contracts in EU countries? There are none because these countries would rather award these contracts to companies domiciled in their own country.

I know of one company at my second to last place of work in Germany who got contracted to install and maintain plasma lances, they were Oxford based. Not sure where you get the idea that UK based firms aren't getting contracts in other EU countries it's just not true.

Is this a £300m high end engineering/construction contract. The kind of contract with a long supply chain which actually creates jobs/wealth..?? The kind of contract that a national economy needs to survive..??

Wasn't 300m but it was in the millions and very lucrative long term maintenance contract added on so yeah.
 
Is this a £300m high end engineering/construction contract. The kind of contract with a long supply chain which actually creates jobs/wealth..?? The kind of contract that a national economy needs to survive..??

Yeah!! :mad:





...err...no. :D but British companies can win contracts overseas, and employ Brits in them. That they aren't very good at it is a whole other argument.
 
Where are the British companies winning contracts in EU countries? There are none because these countries would rather award these contracts to companies domiciled in their own country.

Can you prove this statement? No, because it's a lie. UK companies are perfectly capable of winnning overseas contracts in the EU and they do.

You, however, seem to be mistaking some place in your head for the actuality of the EU labour market, which is that it is a single entity, and every worker in the EU can move around it and find work.
 
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