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How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

Plus when considering evidence of who was at parties where abuse took place, we have to be careful about our impressions of the 'party format'. We are probably dealing with more than one scene, different sizes of parties, and some parties where paedophilia was not the central theme, but rather something a subsection of guests were involved with, with varying degrees of blatancy.
 
elbows said:
But given the very large number of Savile victims who have come forwards, I kinda would have hoped that if he had lots of links to political paedophile rings, parties, etc, more victims of political paedophiles would have come forwards than has been the case so far.
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Tv faces & celebs would have been easy to remember, MP's not so. Could that be a determining factor?
 
elbows said:
Thing is the conspiracy idiot QC's suggestion wasn't just that Savile was in a ring, it was that he coordinated it.

Savile certainly fancied himself as a fixer and loved to mix with powerful people and make use of any power that came from such contacts. But given the very large number of Savile victims who have come forwards, I kinda would have hoped that if he had lots of links to political paedophile rings, parties, etc, more victims of political paedophiles would have come forwards than has been the case so far. Don't get me wrong, I don't rule anything out, especially as Savile seemed to have more than one modus operandi when it came to abusing kids. But on the face of it the one he is most associated with isn't a brilliant fit for the sort of impression of paedophile party abuse we have gleaned so far.
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It was said that Savile's driver was said to be the person 'fixing the boys' for people. It should be noted that Smith had already been convicted of various offences back in the 1960's. Savile couldnt have not known about what his driver was up to, so if the victim is not mistaking David Smith's and Jimmy Savile's identity, its safe to assume that he had some knowledge of what was going on re: supplying of boys to VIP's and MP's. No, it doesn't mean he was the 'kingpin' - but it would surely be enough to suggest he was involved in a paedophile ring?
 
Barking_Mad said:
It was said that Savile's driver was said to be the person 'fixing the boys' for people. It should be noted that Smith had already been convicted of various offences back in the 1960's. Savile couldnt have not known about what his driver was up to, so if the victim is not mistaking David Smith's and Jimmy Savile's identity, its safe to assume that he had some knowledge of what was going on re: supplying of boys to VIP's and MP's. No, it doesn't mean he was the 'kingpin' - but it would surely be enough to suggest he was involved in a paedophile ring?
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It's on my list to look at him further, including studying all his prior convictions, which appear to number 22 and includes ones in the 1980's. If he was a fixer for powerful people, they didn't stop him being convicted on multiple occasions. When linking him to Savile we also have to consider the time period that he was actually Savile's driver, associate etc. I am too ill informed at the present moment to continue in this direction, but I will return to it when better prepared.
 
Barking_Mad said:
Ok, im sorry. Please move on you're not doing my anxiety disorder any good. Ill be taking an extra tablet tonight!
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If it makes you feel any better at all, consider that any particular desire to hose this thread down right now might also be due to a variety of other things having been posted here with increased frequency in more recent times by people other than you. Stuff that may make a few of us feel the need to unjoin some of the more poorly joined dots to say the least.
 
Perhaps there should be a separate "Most hilarious paedophile conspiracy theories" thread some of the bullshit could be consigned to. Or perhaps a separate thread about the resurgent homophobic and antisemitic smears that seem to have originated in Tory Party factional infighting in the 1980s and are now floating to the surface, like rancid turds, as 'evidence of the konspiracy'.

In the meantime my 'nudge nudge, wink wink' detector appears to be on the blink - what do Tom Driberg, Lord Boothby and Ronnie Kray have in common beyond being unpleasant characters and reportedly engaging in gay sex ? And what have they to do with paedophile rings ? Or am I supposed to have just answered my own question ?
 
My research on 'Saviles driver' came to an abrupt end when it became clear that nobody could work out if he had ever formally worked for the BBC, and there were repeated suggestions that he had not actually been a driver for Savile. I have hazy memories that there may be some other link between him and Savile, but I can't find anything right now, not least because his death dominates the search results.
 
Lurdan said:
Perhaps there should be a separate "Most hilarious paedophile conspiracy theories" thread some of the bullshit could be consigned to. Or perhaps a separate thread about the resurgent homophobic and antisemitic smears that seem to have originated in Tory Party factional infighting in the 1980s and are now floating to the surface, like rancid turds, as 'evidence of the konspiracy'.
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I've brought this side of things up on various occasions, including one of the only times I've ever felt the need to backup something that David Cameron was getting at (when faced with Philip Schofields list if I recall). Factors such as the size of the tory 'gay closet' during the period in question, and the evolution of the age of consent, are further ingredients of the horrid brew you are describing there, and that stuff was what Camerons insufficient daytime tv soundbite about a gay witch-hunt was getting at.
 
Lurdan said:
Perhaps there should be a separate "Most hilarious paedophile conspiracy theories" thread some of the bullshit could be consigned to. Or perhaps a separate thread about the resurgent homophobic and antisemitic smears that seem to have originated in Tory Party factional infighting in the 1980s and are now floating to the surface, like rancid turds, as 'evidence of the konspiracy'.

In the meantime my 'nudge nudge, wink wink' detector appears to be on the blink - what do Tom Driberg, Lord Boothby and Ronnie Kray have in common beyond being unpleasant characters and reportedly engaging in gay sex ? And what have they to do with paedophile rings ? Or am I supposed to have just answered my own question ?
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It was just an attempt to show that what is 'untrue' at the time can be true 50 year later.
 
I thought this interesting as the quote I remember seeing on here and elsewhere is usually a little shorter and missing the names included on the same page. Those of Norman Tebbitt and the snippet about Teresa Gorman's agent...

Edwina Currie's diary entry re: Sir Peter Morrison,

currie-diaries.png

The same Norman Tebbitt who fairly recently commented,

"At that time I think most people would have thought that the establishment, the system, was to be protected and if a few things had gone wrong here and there that it was more important to protect the system than to delve too far into it.

"That view, I think, was wrong then and it is spectacularly shown to be wrong because the abuses have grown."

Asked if he thought there had been a "big political cover-up" at the time, he said: "I think there may well have been. But it was almost unconscious. It was the thing that people did at that time."
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elbows said:
My research on 'Saviles driver' came to an abrupt end when it became clear that nobody could work out if he had ever formally worked for the BBC, and there were repeated suggestions that he had not actually been a driver for Savile. I have hazy memories that there may be some other link between him and Savile, but I can't find anything right now, not least because his death dominates the search results.
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Curiously there's this about Ray Teret....
 
Today's Guardian

"The security services are facing questions over the cover-up of a Westminster paedophile ring as it emerged that files relating to official requests for media blackouts in the early 1980s were destroyed.

Two newspaper executives have told the Observer that their publications were issued with D-notices – warnings not to publish intelligence that might damage national security – when they sought to report on allegations of a powerful group of men engaging in child sex abuse in 1984. One executive said he had been accosted in his office by 15 uniformed and two non-uniformed police over a dossier on Westminster paedophiles passed to him by the former Labour cabinet minister Barbara Castle.

Cyril Smith bullied his way into my office. I thought he was going to punch me. He was sweating and aggressive and wanted to take the files away saying it was a load of nonsense and that Barbara Castle just had a bee in her bonnet about homosexuals. I refused to give him the files.

The very next day two non-uniformed officers, about 15 uniformed officers and another non-uniformed person who didn’t introduce himself, came to the office waving a D-notice and said that I would be damaging national security if I reported on the file.”

Full text

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/22/media-gagged-westminster-child-abuse-ring
 
The worst thing that those campaigning for justice could do is allow their comments or private thoughts to stand up stories that make headlines in newspapers but do not assist the police with their inquiries.

The new allegations are more serious than anything previously reported. Campaigners should proceed with caution, keeping their critical faculties alert at all times. Above all, beware of reporters looking for easy headlines.
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I sort of assumed this story was floated by the investigation to try & get some more witnesses to come forward to help corroborate “Nick”s story


..we know Savile did connect to Cyril Smith…

Pair met at a medieval banquet in Worsley, Greater Manchester
In 1973, Smith appeared on Savile's TV show Clunk Click
Savile later appeared with Smith in a Liberal Party political broadcast

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-position-access-young-boys-Jimmy-Savile.html

…..and Smith to Peter Righton….

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/new-victim-links-notorious-paedophile-1815932

…and Cyril was acting as the network’s enforcer – rushing around confiscating dossiers as & when required…presumably a pretty intimidating presence when in a bad mood….

…2 sources place him at Elm Guest House …..David Issett and a boy who worked there Danczuk tracked down….

…when you start mapping it out you can join David Steel to Smith, Ian Campbell Dunn & Peter Hayman…to Clegg ( bit of a dotted line that one )…who links to Brittan..it just goes on & on…



…as regards deep historical background…how horribly resonant is this…

The super-cop who busted London's child brothels


….one evening in 1882, he met a woman called Mary Jeffries, who told him proudly about the brothels she owned and the number of girls she trafficked, adding that no one could touch her as she ‘only did business with gentlemen of the highest rank in life’.
Never one to shirk a challenge, Minahan took to hanging around outside her brothels watching these gentlemen of the highest rank coming and going - and writing everything down in his notebook.
The first inkling that this might not be a great career move came when his notebook was stolen from his locked desk.
When Minahan reported what he’d witnessed to his superior officer, he was transferred again - this time to the even more distant suburb of Highgate. He was demoted to sergeant and had his pay cut in half.

Minahan decided that he’d had enough. He offered his resignation and appealed directly to the Home Secretary, Sir William Harcourt. What Minahan didn’t know was that Harcourt, even by Victorian standards, was a colossally creepy pervert - he’s believed to have had an incestuous gay relationship with his own son.
Not only that, he was one of Mrs Jeffries’ most regular customers.
Harcourt, predictably enough, told him to get lost - whereupon ‘the black cloak of vengeance settled upon the broad bones of Jeremiah’s shoulders’, as O’Donnell puts it in her distinctively florid way.
 
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The D-notice story interests me. I've often complained when the term is used as shorthand for a range of things, or it is extremely lazily assumed by some that whenever there are rumours about someone that the press won't touch at a particular moment, it simply must be because of a D-Notice or a super-injunction. Well thats clearly bollocks, but it does not mean the D-Notice system was never abused.

At the moment it remains unclear to me whether the term is being used properly in the recent stories though, or whether the denials are plausible because it was actually some other mechanism that was used to silence the press in cases such as this. I had previously been thinking on the basis that if you abuse the D-Notice system so blatantly to protect individuals within the establishment, as opposed to using them for reasons of national security that resonate with 'responsible gentlemen of the press', you run the risk of bringing the system into disrepute with the very people you need to keep on-side with it. And that if the truth about this comes out at any point, you've destroyed the 'powerful illusions' about press freedom that go hand in hand with our version of democracy and freedom.
 
In the case of David Hale's story when he was passed Barbara Castle's dossier, it seems whether the D-Notice was real or not, the term was certainly, at least according to him used, alongside his office in Lancashire being raided by London police, to put the creepers up him and stop what he was doing.
 
hot air baboon said:
Minahan decided that he’d had enough. He offered his resignation and appealed directly to the Home Secretary, Sir William Harcourt. What Minahan didn’t know was that Harcourt, even by Victorian standards, was a colossally creepy pervert - he’s believed to have had an incestuous gay relationship with his own son.
Not only that, he was one of Mrs Jeffries’ most regular customers.
Harcourt, predictably enough, told him to get lost - whereupon ‘the black cloak of vengeance settled upon the broad bones of Jeremiah’s shoulders’, as O’Donnell puts it in her distinctively florid way.
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It is actually Harcourts son Loulou who has the best documented record on the paedophilia front:

If the outward trappings of Loulou's life and career were conventional, the private side was less so. The Harcourts were an apparently contented couple with a son and two daughters, but Loulou's true romantic and sexual interests lay elsewhere. He was an enthusiastic practising paedophile, absorbed by children of both sexes. A great friend was Reginald (Reggie) Brett, 2nd Viscount Esher, Edwardian eminence grise and professional confidant - not least - of the King, as well as many prominent politicians. They saw much of each other: Reggie was Secretary to the Board of Works while Loulou was Commissioner. Reggie shared his friend's sexual tastes but preferred boys to girls. He had a long affair with his own second son, Maurice, who also supplied a number of Eton schoolfriends. Loulou also seduced Maurice, as well as Reggie's young daughter Dorothy (the "Brett" of DH Lawrence), putting her off men for life. (Loulou was not a physically attractive man; many found him repulsive.)

Reggie became concerned about his friend, believing his indiscretion and high public profile might lead to eventual exposure. Both men were Fellows of Eton, and, according to James Lees Milne's excellent biography of Esher, The Enigmatic Edwardian (1986), boys there were warned to avoid taking walks alone with either Lord Harcourt or Lord Esher.

Some time during the autumn of 1921, Loulou pounced on an Eton boy who, with his mother, was visiting Nuneham Court, the Harcourts' country house in Oxfordshire. The boy was Edward James (the future millionaire homosexual aesthete, patron of Betjeman and the surrealists, and owner of Monkton Hall). James recalls in his memoirs that he fought off Loulou's advances ("a hideous and horrible old man") and told his mother what had happened. She gossiped indignantly about the assault among friends in London society, and the story slowly made the social descent until it reached the police.

On the morning of 24 February, Loulou, who had been looking preoccupied for days, was found dead by his valet in his dressing room at 69 Brook Street - where he had been sleeping since ceasing relations with his wife some years earlier. He had swallowed a whole bottle of the sleeping draught known as Bromidia.
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From a long piece at http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/scandals-in-the-house-1579987.html
 
hot air baboon said:
...true, which was sort of what was on my mind but contrariwise how else do you try to understand the morphology of a network of individuals....
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Nick Clegg is closer to Leon Brittan than I am to you, but that doesn't mean Nick Clegg is dodgy, well not in that sense of the word any way :) Whether you could link David Steel to Cyril Smith by virtue of not only knowing him but turning a blind eye to his interest in abusing young boys is slightly more tangible, although still unproven.
 
Barking_Mad said:
In the case of David Hale's story when he was passed Barbara Castle's dossier, it seems whether the D-Notice was real or not, the term was certainly, at least according to him used, alongside his office in Lancashire being raided by London police, to put the creepers up him and stop what he was doing.
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Indeed, and I am quite willing to eliminate my previous assumptions, although I'm sure we'll still have to face people using the term inappropriately in future.

Sadly its a Mail article which spells out the Hale D-Notice stuff in the most detail, but I'll have to link to it anyway as its important:

At this point, the officer produced a document, signed by a judge. It showed that his previous remark about not printing the story had not been a request, but an order. The document handed to Hale was a D-notice — a relic of wartime censorship that could be served on newspaper editors, allowing the Government to block any story that threatened national security.

‘If you don’t comply with this notice, we will arrest you for perverting the course of justice,’ the detective barked. ‘You will be liable for up to ten years in prison.’
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( http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...paedophile-lobby-s-influence-Westminster.html )
 
laptop said:
I'm sure I've met people who've met Savile. And you've "met" me. Be very afraid!
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And I've also met a past Secretary of the D-Notice Committee - an affable Admiral. So you're a spook too.

As I've said before, there are only a handful of formal D-Notices. Those I've seen forbid reporting such stuff as anything about GCHQ (ha!) and the whereabouts of named Soviet defectors.

It's possible that the cops were delivering a letter from the Secretary of the Committee - a different thing. Or just some flimflam that looked like such a letter.
 
Anyways one of the biggest discrepancies with the D-Notice stuff is whether its a legal thing which would be signed by a judge and carry the risk of perverting the course of justice if ignored. Nearly everything I've read in the past suggests it was an informal thing that editors mostly went along with for reasons other than the legal.

For example the wikipedia entry for the 1967 D-Notice affair is a reasonable start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-notice_affair

In the absence of further explanation, I am inclined right now to assume that the term D-Notice may have been used as a broader term to refer to more than just the work of the actual D-Notice committee.
 
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