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How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

elbows said:
Can you expand on that? Cheers.
Click to expand...

The more stuff that gets thrown around, when stuff you might have - in any other context - dismissed as fanciful conspiraloonery starts to look like there may be threads of truth in some of it, when there are newsnight programmes going out, hinting at this or that, when the Savile stuff continues to explode and look nastier and nastier, when more and more people are implicated, when people like Watson start blogging implying a fear for his own safety, and so on ..... I'm personally finding it difficult to do anything other than sit and stare at my computer or tv screen, completely confused and frustrated and astonished, trying to balance the in-built scepticism I have wrt blindly rushing headlong into speculation based on outright conspiraloonery on the one hand, and the knowledge of how dangerous it is to dismiss things out of hand, as happened for so long in the Savile case - and the range of feelings and positions that exist in between those two extremes.

Why did you ask me to expand on that? Did you think I was referring to something other than what I just explained?
 

Watson mentioning "mysterious fires" reminds me of an abuse-related case back in (I think) the early '90s down in Brighton/Hove, where a guy who'd been through the care system, followed by the sadly usual round of substance use and incarceration, had straightened himself out, had spoken to a journo from a local paper (Brighton Argus, I think), and had got together with some other survivors of abuse at the same institutions, and set up a shared flat with them.
The fire that killed him and his flatmates was rumoured to have been the work of people who sometimes worked for Brighton's favourite slumlord, but Mr. Highstreet wouldn't have benefited from having a rentable property razed, whereas the abusers of a group of victims who'd decided to tell their tales, and who weren't looking to make mney through compo or through the media, had everything to gain by torching the place.
 
Vintage Paw said:
The more stuff that gets thrown around, when stuff you might have - in any other context - dismissed as fanciful conspiraloonery starts to look like there may be threads of truth in some of it, when there are newsnight programmes going out, hinting at this or that, when the Savile stuff continues to explode and look nastier and nastier, when more and more people are implicated, when people like Watson start blogging implying a fear for his own safety, and so on ..... I'm personally finding it difficult to do anything other than sit and stare at my computer or tv screen, completely confused and frustrated and astonished, trying to balance the in-built scepticism I have wrt blindly rushing headlong into speculation based on outright conspiraloonery on the one hand, and the knowledge of how dangerous it is to dismiss things out of hand, as happened for so long in the Savile case - and the range of feelings and positions that exist in between those two extremes.
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this is pretty much what I feel. The tom watson blog post is disturbing - this is not an internet fantasist. I have bcome ever more impatient with conspira-lunacy over the years and some of these sounds simialr in the scale and scope of the accusations - but then you look at who saying this - its not David Icke and Co - its Newsnight, Michael Crick, Tom Watson.

Then I think - Saville got way with committing systamatic abuse on a horrendous scale with the tacit complicity of many institutions. Saville was rich - but was not super wealthy, and he had nothing like the power and connections of the 'fusilier'. In addition the people involved in this are less visible than Saville - so harder to interest the media in their wrong doings. What couldn't these fucks get away with?

This is very disturbing shit.
 
Vintage Paw said:
The more stuff that gets thrown around, when stuff you might have - in any other context - dismissed as fanciful conspiraloonery starts to look like there may be threads of truth in some of it, when there are newsnight programmes going out, hinting at this or that, when the Savile stuff continues to explode and look nastier and nastier, when more and more people are implicated, when people like Watson start blogging implying a fear for his own safety, and so on ..... I'm personally finding it difficult to do anything other than sit and stare at my computer or tv screen, completely confused and frustrated and astonished, trying to balance the in-built scepticism I have wrt blindly rushing headlong into speculation based on outright conspiraloonery on the one hand, and the knowledge of how dangerous it is to dismiss things out of hand, as happened for so long in the Savile case - and the range of feelings and positions that exist in between those two extremes.

Why did you ask me to expand on that? Did you think I was referring to something other than what I just explained?
Click to expand...

Frankly, I think that any balanced and rational person would "find it difficult to do anything other than sit and stare at my computer or tv screen, completely confused and frustrated and astonished".
Admittedly, I'm not completely confused, frustrated or astonished, but I'm extremely cynical, and I've been exposed to the viler side of life more than I wanted to be. That said, I am still startled and shocked at the seeming scope of abuse, although as I said earlier in this thread, I'm not convinced of there being a "high level UK paedophile ring", I believe that what there is more closely resembles cells overlapping like on a Venn diagram, IYSWIM.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Watson mentioning "mysterious fires" reminds me of an abuse-related case back in (I think) the early '90s down in Brighton/Hove, where a guy who'd been through the care system, followed by the sadly usual round of substance use and incarceration, had straightened himself out, had spoken to a journo from a local paper (Brighton Argus, I think), and had got together with some other survivors of abuse at the same institutions, and set up a shared flat with them.
The fire that killed him and his flatmates was rumoured to have been the work of people who sometimes worked for Brighton's favourite slumlord, but Mr. Highstreet wouldn't have benefited from having a rentable property razed, whereas the abusers of a group of victims who'd decided to tell their tales, and who weren't looking to make mney through compo or through the media, had everything to gain by torching the place.
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One of the victims from Bryn Estyn I believe. A disproportionate number of the others have died as well, sometimes in unusual circumstances.
 
Also the media is handling this very very quitely - 'man accuses politican of sex abuse' is a (small) sub heading on the graun website. 'victim seeks abuse investigation' is the simarlly bland sub heading on the bbc site. Meanwhile none of print papers have it on their front page - the Sun has a splash on allegations about the long dead Leonard Rossiter.

Seeing as this story would blow hackgate and saville out of the water - what is going on here? I'm hoping that there is some very busy digging going on behind the scenes.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Watson mentioning "mysterious fires" reminds me of an abuse-related case back in (I think) the early '90s down in Brighton/Hove, where a guy who'd been through the care system, followed by the sadly usual round of substance use and incarceration, had straightened himself out, had spoken to a journo from a local paper (Brighton Argus, I think), and had got together with some other survivors of abuse at the same institutions, and set up a shared flat with them.
The fire that killed him and his flatmates was rumoured to have been the work of people who sometimes worked for Brighton's favourite slumlord, but Mr. Highstreet wouldn't have benefited from having a rentable property razed, whereas the abusers of a group of victims who'd decided to tell their tales, and who weren't looking to make mney through compo or through the media, had everything to gain by torching the place.
Click to expand...

RE: The fatal Fire in Brighton - I was watching an interesting Youtube documentary on this last night.
The Johns brothers (Adrian & Lee) both claimed they were abused in Bryn Alyn Community children's home and one of their testimonies (Lee, who had then changed his surname to Homberg) later convicted John Allen (head of Bryn Alyn). Some slight suggestion they might have been bribed by him or were blackmailing him. INot sure I believe the conspiracy theories about the fire though, a lot of the stuff about Hoogstraten was about failing to install fire escapes


more info - http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/jul/28/tonythompson.theobserver
 
Vintage Paw said:
Why did you ask me to expand on that? Did you think I was referring to something other than what I just explained?
Click to expand...

I simply wasnt sure, and I didnt want to make assumptions about what you meant. Thanks for the explanation.

One of the reasons conspiracy theories have both interested and deeply annoyed me is that a proportion of them are based on rumours and theories which, whilst not being backed by cast iron evidence in the public domain, may have a little something to them. I wont start going on about the wider subject right now, but when it comes to child abuse & associated coverups I wont be surprised if some of what the likes of Icke has been pedalling turn out to be true. This is mostly because of the original source of some of the material, its not stuff Icke has simply made up or deduced in a faulty manner. Its stuff that mainstream journalists could only hint at at the time, but surely gossiped about among themselves, and which a satirical publication dared to run with.

The same cannot be said for all the abuse-related stuff we read about online, a proportion of which is down to mental health issues, other agendas and also at times attitudes towards homosexuality, both historically and now.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Watson mentioning "mysterious fires" reminds me of an abuse-related case back in (I think) the early '90s down in Brighton/Hove, where a guy who'd been through the care system, followed by the sadly usual round of substance use and incarceration, had straightened himself out, had spoken to a journo from a local paper (Brighton Argus, I think), and had got together with some other survivors of abuse at the same institutions, and set up a shared flat with them.
The fire that killed him and his flatmates was rumoured to have been the work of people who sometimes worked for Brighton's favourite slumlord, but Mr. Highstreet wouldn't have benefited from having a rentable property razed, whereas the abusers of a group of victims who'd decided to tell their tales, and who weren't looking to make mney through compo or through the media, had everything to gain by torching the place.
Click to expand...
There are supposed links between that fire and the north wales Cheshire stuff - if you mean the one where 4 or 5 were people killed that is. I've not posted the links/story before as i haven't been able to find anything to back it up beyond what could well simply be paranoid sites leaping to conclusions (and i sort of forgot about it until now as well).
 
butchersapron said:
There are supposed links between that fire and the north wales Cheshire stuff - if you mean the one where 4 or 5 were people killed that is. I've not posted the links/story before as i haven't been able to find anything to back it up beyond what could well simply be paranoid sites leaping to conclusions (and i sort of forgot about it until now as well).
Click to expand...

Yeah, it was the one where 5 people were killed.
 
Kaka Tim said:
Also the media is handling this very very quitely - 'man accuses politican of sex abuse' is a (small) sub heading on the graun website. 'victim seeks abuse investigation' is the simarlly bland sub heading on the bbc site. Meanwhile none of print papers have it on their front page - the Sun has a splash on allegations about the long dead Leonard Rossiter.

Seeing as this story would blow hackgate and saville out of the water - what is going on here? I'm hoping that there is some very busy digging going on behind the scenes.
Click to expand...

The mirror were running it quite prominently on their website earlier, not sure if thats still the case.

At best we might hope the lack of interest is just down to a lack of name. But the tories who came out and started going on about Peter Morrison didnt exactly cause the shitstorm we might have expected.

I dont know how much it matters that the stuff is historical, I have a fear it might matter quite a bit more to peoples interest levels than those hoping for the entire Thatcher era tory regime to be completely tainted presently anticipate. Having studied the twitter rumour frenzy a fair bit recently, there are a lot of people expecting a current name, and its not clear how much of a shit they will give if it turns out to be someone they've never heard of.
 
where to said:
That seems to be the conspiraloon lot conflating two issues.
Click to expand...
Okay, thanks.

I didn't know this though and seeing as it's on a wiki-page can't confirm it:
There were complaints to police regarding Hamilton's behaviour towards the young boys who attended the youth clubs he directed. Complaints had been made of him having taken photographs of semi-naked boys without parental consent.[8]
Hamilton had been a Scout leader with the 4th/6th Stirling and 24th Stirlingshire troops of the Scout Association. Several complaints were made about his leadership, including two occasions when Scouts were forced to sleep with Hamilton in his van during hill-walking expeditions. Hamilton's Scout Warrant was withdrawn on 13 May 1974, with the County Commissioner stating that he was "suspicious of his moral intentions towards boys".[9]

He claimed in letters that rumours about him led to the failure of his shop business in 1993, and in the last months of his life he complained again that his attempts to organise a boys' club were subject to persecution by local police and the scout movement. Among those to whom he complained were Queen Elizabeth and local Member of Parliament, Michael Forsyth. In the 1980s, another MP, George Robertson, who resided in Dunblane, had complained to Forsyth about Hamilton's local boys' club, which his son had attended. On the day following the massacre, Robertson spoke of having argued with Hamilton "in my own home".[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre
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Has this come up here before?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2000/feb/21/parliament.uk?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487


Monday 21 February 2000 15.01 GMT
  • An MP yesterday threatened to use parliamentary privilege to reveal the names of at least six more suspected child sex abusers linked to the north Wales care home scandal.
  • Martyn Jones, Labour MP for Clwyd South, believes that last week's Waterhouse report did not uncover the full extent of the crimes. He said there were still people named by known victims of the care home abusers who had not been properly investigated.
If Mr Jones does not get a fresh inquiry or action from the police, he says he will use parliamentary privilege to name names in the Commons.
Some of those on Mr Jones's list are believed still to be working in positions where they might come into contact with children.
Mr Jones, chairman of the Commons Welsh select committee, made a similar threat to "out" alleged abusers in order to pressure the John Major administration to launch the Waterhouse inquiry.
He added: "The names I have, I have known since 1989 - they are not simply malicious allegations on the back of the recent publicity."

• The hunt was continuing yesterday for two men believed to have been involved in the murder of a convicted child rapist. William Bruce Malcolm, 44, died after being shot in the head on Thursday night in Manor Park, east London.
Click to expand...
 
Shocked that Tom O'Carrol the former head of the paedophile internet exchange is now out of prison, publishing "Dangerous Books Ltd" https://www.duedil.com/company/06992707/dangerous-books-limited and is brazen enough to have his own website http://whois.domaintools.com/dangerousbooks.co.uk hxxp://www.dangerousbooks.co.uk/ The last arrest he was caught trying to supply child porn to an undercover policeman in association with a millionaire ex vicar. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/6196811.stm
 
free spirit said:
I just realised that the conservative MP named in this article was the deputy director of the conservative party research department from 1990-96, and David Cameron worked for the same research department from 1988-93.

I'm not suggesting Cameron was involved in any cover up then, as apart from anything else, I don't think the timings match, but I do think this raises serious questions about his impartiality now when it comes to exposing the activities of someone he worked with directly for 3 years (if there was anything to be exposed).
Click to expand...

I've done some more digging into this, and there's actually another explanation for why this person might have wanted to get hold of the scallywag files (taken from his own website so I assume it's ok to post, though prob best not to actually use his name still).

In 1994, person x, who was later to become a Conservative MP, used his skills in strategic studies to putScallywagout of business. He was understandably aggrieved by its wholly false accusations – that he was preparing a dossier on the (non-existent) homosexual activities of Tony Blair, then leader of the Labour opposition, and that he was himself a secret homosexual, transvestite and frequenter of male dens of iniquity who used women from escort agencies to accompany him to political events – but Scallywag's editor, Simon Regan, who was living on income support and disability benefit, made it clear that neither he nor the magazine was worth suing.

However, when x denied these allegations, Scallywag added insult to injury by accusing him of lying, leaving him with the problem of how to nail these demonstrably false claims to protect his prospects of remaining a parliamentary candidate. Either he had to tolerate them, running the risk of a whispering campaign, or he had to sue for libel without piling up huge costs that would be irrecoverable from an assetless libeller.

X decided to sue the printer, six distributors and two retailers and in the end he recovered £39,500 damages plus a much larger sum in costs. The printer and distributors could have been in little doubt as to the libellous content of Scallywag. x supplied details of the magazine's distributors and printers to former police superintendent Gordon Anglesea who, as we saw in Chapter 6, had also been libelled by Scallywag, and he too sued. x was in turn sued by "Scallywag Ltd" for malicious falsehood, but after he defended the action as a litigant in person without incurring costs that claim was not pursued. Shortly afterwards the assetless company was struck off the register of companies.
Click to expand...

So Scallywag had actually made accusations against him, which he'd successfully sued for, and was actually the person finally responsibile for killing scallywag off.

This would potentially give him motivation for getting his hands on scallywags files, BUT it potentially also might give Simon Regan reason to embellish what he later says about X.

This from Regan's wiki page also gives me pause for thought when it comes to Regan's credibility
In his final years Regan devoted himself to propagating his belief that Diana, Princess of Wales had been killed in a conspiracy.
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I was struggling to explain a few things about this, not least of which is how come regan hadn't been sued again for that article given that it's listed as having been written on 2000.

This has led me to doing some digging on the web, and to me, it looks as if this entire PEBPR website was set up in September 2012, so just before the saville scandal broke, which to me means that either it was set up by someone aware that the saville scandal was about to break, and wanting to ensure all these old articles had a home and could be easily found when it all kicked off for legitimate reasons, or there were more nefarious reasons for it being set up. Check the earliest dates on these links, plus way back when machine has nothing at all on them.

http://worldblogofblogs.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=http://pebpr.blogspot.co.uk/
http://www.alexa.com/site/linksin/pebpr.blogspot.co.uk

eta - also on that world of blogs post are links to the aangirfin blogspot site, but alexa gives links for that site dating back to earlier in 2012
 
I'm fucked if I know what to think here, other than that there's fuck loads of sculduggery going on, and nothing's quite what it seems to be.

Also this stuff's been going on for decades, and either simon regan was completely off his rocker, or there was something that made him pursue this until his death despite the fact that it had bankrupted him.

Him and several other journos who seem to have looked into this in a serious way in the 90s, and seemed pretty sure the allegations had a sound basis.
 
Vintage Paw said:
The more stuff that gets thrown around, when stuff you might have - in any other context - dismissed as fanciful conspiraloonery starts to look like there may be threads of truth in some of it
Click to expand...

The problem with a lot of conspiraloonacy as far as I see it is that some of the conspiracy theories closely resemble actual phenomena in real life, only with added lizards, Satanists, UFOs, etc. The worst problem to arise from them is that they throw people off the scent of some things that are really happening, while the perpetrators hide in plain sight and able able to dismiss any talk of impropriety by pointing and laughing at all the conspiraloons and their paranoid agendas.
 
I've just remembered some tales a mate of mine told me while he lived down there that had come from his lass who'd been working as a stripper in the area for several years, including at private events involving several members of the upper echelons of a neighbouring police force to the one related to the north wales kids homes abuse.

These girls were over aged, but late teens / early 20's at best, and IIRC there was a fair amount of open kinkiness involved.

So I can well believe that if any of them had been involved in anything involving under aged kids, then they'd have had enough dirt on all the others to ensure that it got covered up even if not all of them had been involved.
 
free spirit said:
I reckon this telegraph article from a few years ago belongs in this thread as well.



It seems a wee bit unlikely that Jimmy Savile, one of the BBC's highest profile presenters in the 70s and 80s would have escaped MI5's attention.

This leads to the conclusion that either MI5 were completely incompetent, and missed JS's activities for decades while they were carrying out these background checks, or they knew about it and just chose to ignore it without any ulteria motive, or they knew about it and maybe used their evidence to force JS to become a tout for them or worse.

That'd certainly explain his ability to hide his activities in plain site, and the willingness of the BBC to not expect there to be any truth to the rumours about him (if he'd been cleared by MI5), as well as the willingness to hand over the running of Broadmoor to him - if MI5 had cleared him already.

It'd also potentially explain some of the odd stuff he hinted at in his theroux interview and elsewhere. It seems quite likely he'd have been an MI5 tout for decades.

That'd also put his apparent frequent chequers visits at Christmas with several different prime ministers into a different light - not just a quirky old entertainer, or even a paedo, but a long time MI5 tout having cosy fireside chats with the PMs of the day for 2 decades.
Click to expand...



The secret state is not concerned about the welfare of children, remember Kincora ? Kids in homes are of no value.

Savile was an open secret.
 
free spirit said:
Would it have been Dyfed-Powys police involved in the welsh abuse scandal and being accused of having high ranking members involved?

If so, I've just remembered some tales a mate of mine told me while he lived down there that had come from his lass who'd been working as a stripper in the area for several years, including at private events involving several members of the upper echelons of Dyfed Powys police.

These girls were over aged, but late teens / early 20's at best, and IIRC there was a fair amount of open kinkiness involved.

So I can well believe that if any of them had been involved in anything involving under aged kids, then they'd have had enough dirt on all the others to ensure that it got covered up even if not all of them had been involved.
Click to expand...


Where people have unlimited power over children, there will always be abuse. Abusers are attracted to such situations. I was at an industrial school, I was the victim of much sadism and abuse. I still have the scars on my back where staff got older kids to beat me on my back with a belt while they jerked off and worse. It left me numb inside for many years, I had panic attacks, I could not deal with crowds, intimacy or trust anyone. Many turned to drink to help them get through their adult lives after a childhood that left them broken and then being cast out into the world with nothing.
 
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