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How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

Reading through this long and rather complacent piece by Richard Webster suggest that the Jillings report basically says there was no paedo ring, only two 'evil men' and that this backed up the previous police investigation which led to two (minor) convictions despite the reports authors being prepared through one failing or another to be only "inclined them to see evidence only of bad practice."
 
I cant see how the present situation with certain names is sustainable, even the likes of Monbiot and Sally Bercow are bringing up a name on Twitter, albeit without mentioning the context.

Bercow is mentioning more names than 1. and it is quite clear the context she is mentioning them when she lists them along side Savile, Glitter and Starr. She includes one name that I suspect is the name Davidson was alluding to last week, but isnt the person I thought he was alluding to!
 
Sorry just reread and it wasnt Bercow mentioninbg those names it was someone who tagged her in tweet, but the names mentioned are bringing up a few mentions!!!!
 
The failed reality tv personality is being asked about this on Twitter and is dismissing the allegations. By engaging with the story I think he is leaving himself wide open to the press running a story on his comments, if not explicit then a vague denial article.

One way or another the genie is getting out of the bottle.
 
Reading through this long and rather complacent piece by Richard Webster suggest that the Jillings report basically says there was no paedo ring, only two 'evil men' and that this backed up the previous police investigation which led to two (minor) convictions despite the reports authors being prepared through one failing or another to be only "inclined them to see evidence only of bad practice."

I dont think he said that. From what I can tell the article does not say that the Jillings report said there was no ring and just a few evil men, it was the police investigation that said that.
 
Numbered copies were all pulped, so that would depend on the chance of someone having made a sneaky copy wouldn't it?
I thought the independent had a copy, which they'd then sourced a whole string of articles from that pretty much led to the later inquiry.

So presumably the independent could publish the report if they had some balls.
 
I thought the independent had a copy, which they'd then sourced a whole string of articles from that pretty much led to the later inquiry.

So presumably the independent could publish the report if they had some balls.

Given that they already lost a libel case years ago due to articles likely based on the report, I'm not really expecting that to happen.
 
Given that they already lost a libel case years ago due to articles likely based on the report, I'm not really expecting that to happen.
possibly not, but I'd expect they're now revisiting those libel cases to see if any new evidence might emerge that might help them get their money back;)

do you have links to those cases at all btw? It's really hard trying to pull up links from back then, and getting worse as google's getting more and more crowded out with more recent posts and threads like these around the web.
 
Richard Websters stuff really should be consumed as part of a balanced diet, its a shame he wasnt much good at being concise.

Its interesting to note that the works of Normal Cohn dealing with conspiracy theories and persecutorial fanaticism seem to have inspired Webster. In this sense Richard Webster is approaching things from an angle that many of us on these forums have tended to share to one extent or another in the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Cohn
 
see if any new evidence might emerge

Well thats the problem with the whole business really. I suspect the chances of new evidence emerging that goes beyond the sort of witnesses we already know about are rather slim. Evidence of a coverup at some level, or of particular peoples known lifestyles, character assassinations, etc are perhaps more likely. The golden egg would be a confession from someone involved at some level at some point, but such things are pretty rare unless a variety of powerful forces become realigned to expose a truth and someone is willing to sacrifice themselves for some higher cause.
 
I've had a read through some of Richard Wbesters stuff, and he does seem to make some valid points, but also seems to have decided that basically a lot of the kids must have been lying because they were offered compensation.

From what I read this really is the essence of his argument, and it's a badly flawed thesis, as it misses the point that both those who had actually suffered abuse, and those who hadn't and decided to make it up to get a share of the compensation were apparently told about the compensation. He seems to assume that the vast majority of them were lying and only in it for the money, which is a massive assumption to make with virtually no evidence to base it on.

In light of what's now coming out, it seems increasingly clear that he called it wrong - or at least got the proportions very wrong.

I also think that mentioning of the likely compensation by the investigators was such bad protocol that for me it looks extremely dodgy - as in likely to have been done deliberately to provide a smokescreen of reasonable doubt behind which those who actually were guilty could hide.
 
Messhams been talking to the Sunday Express:

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/356021/Tory-rapist-will-be-named


Steven Messham will tell Scotland Yard this week that one of his abusers was a key member of the Tory Party. He was contacted by detectives yesterday following a Newsnight report into allegations of an elite child sex ring that preyed on youngsters at a North Wales care home.
The highly respected politician, who enjoyed close ties to Margaret Thatcher’s government, was not named in the programme because of legal constraints.
However, Mr Messham told the Sunday Express the identity of his alleged abuser. He said the sexual assaults spanned 18 months from 1977 when he was 13.
He said he was:
• Sexually abused in a hotel room by the political figure and the son of a lord as well as seven other paedophiles.
• Tied up and raped by the top Tory.
 
I've had a read through some of his stuff, and he does seem to make some valid points, but also seems to have decided that basically a lot of the kids must have been lying because they were offered compensation.

From what I read this really is the essence of his argument, and it's a badly flawed thesis, as it misses the point that both those who had actually suffered abuse, and those who hadn't and decided to make it up to get a share of the compensation were apparently told about the compensation. He seems to assume that the vast majority of them were lying and only in it for the money, which is a massive assumption to make with virtually no evidence to base it on.

In light of what's now coming out, it seems increasingly clear that he called it wrong - or at least got the proportions very wrong.

I also think that mentioning of the likely compensation by the investigators was such bad protocol that for me it looks extremely dodgy - as in likely to have been done deliberately to provide a smokescreen of reasonable doubt behind which those who actually were guilty could hide.

I've said before that he err'd in the other direction, but I'd still be a fool not to pay attention to many of the points he raised.

As for the police, when someone broke my nose many years ago the police mentioned compensation to encourage me to give a statement, and when it initially happened they had a name of someone they were hoping had done it, and seemed a little sad that the actual perpetrator was a different person.
 
I've said before that he err'd in the other direction, but I'd still be a fool not to pay attention to many of the points he raised.

As for the police, when someone broke my nose many years ago the police mentioned compensation to encourage me to give a statement, and when it initially happened they had a name of someone they were hoping had done it, and seemed a little sad that the actual perpetrator was a different person.
there is also the potential that it was just the usual cack handed police attempt to fit up the ones they thought were guilty, but given that there are allegations circulating that top local plod were among those named, I think it's fairly plausible that they'd use this as a method of ensuring the sufficient doubt was cast on all statements made for them to have little credibilty in court, and ensure that a couple of expendable scapegoats got sent down.

It's probably about the last approach available to them once something like this blows up to the extent where it can't just be swept under the carpet, the bonus being that they get away with it while being seen publicly to be doing everything possible, leaving no stone unturned, and even bending the rules in their efforts to ensure the dirty pedos get sent down.
 
The Bureau’s Angus Stickler reported on the case in 2000. In the BBC investigation he interviewed some of the victims and uncovered allegations of a paedophile ring involving businessmen, police and a senior public figure, which abused the children from the care homes.

‘If someone is concerned that an allegation was reported in the past but not fully investigated, they should raise this with the police or relevant authority so that they can look again at what happened.’

can anyone spot the flaw in downing street's statement?

http://www.thebureauinvestigates.co...oner-for-wales-backs-calls-for-abuse-inquiry/
 
do you have links to those cases at all btw? It's really hard trying to pull up links from back then, and getting worse as google's getting more and more crowded out with more recent posts and threads like these around the web.

Besides the various Webster articles, most of what I can find easily so far is from after the case.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/libel-case-witness-found-hanged-1571222.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/north-wales-police-chief-on-sex-charge-1283203.html

A failed attempt by Regan to go after a Solicitor acting for Anglesey who called Regan a lying criminal:

http://www.thelawyer.com/spawning-libel-actions/86513.article
http://www.thelawyer.com/litigator039s-view/77985.article
https://www.lawcareers.net/Courses/News/20032000-Licence-to-Libel-New-privileges-for-solicitors
 
The failed reality tv personality is being asked about this on Twitter and is dismissing the allegations. By engaging with the story I think he is leaving himself wide open to the press running a story on his comments, if not explicit then a vague denial article.

One way or another the genie is getting out of the bottle.

Interesting what you find when you know the name of that failed reality personality and google it along with the word paedophile!

Much of the stuff coming out may be the work of the conspiraloons, but fuck me everyone connects with everyone else, this thing is far bigger tha we are being told.
 
Given that they already lost a libel case years ago due to articles likely based on the report, I'm not really expecting that to happen.
the libel case was in 1994, the council report was not published in 1996.

But I'm sure the earlier libel trial did result in the indy being a lot more careful in 96.

In the 94 libel trial several witnesses directly testified in court, but apparently were disbelieved by the jury. Can anyone find any evidence of them being prosecuted for perjury?
 
possibly not, but I'd expect they're now revisiting those libel cases to see if any new evidence might emerge that might help them get their money back;)

do you have links to those cases at all btw? It's really hard trying to pull up links from back then, and getting worse as google's getting more and more crowded out with more recent posts and threads like these around the web.

There is a whole section on the Anglesea Libel trial in the report, including assessments of the witness evidence. I posted it on the other thread -
http://tna.europarchive.org/20040216040105/http://www.doh.gov.uk/lostincare/20111.htm

Assessment of the evidence of witness B
9.32 It would be inappropriate to prolong this report by a detailed analysis of the credibility of each of these witnesses but it is necessary to deal specifically with B and C. We are satisfied that B has suffered a long history of sexual abuse before, during and after his period in care and, to a significant extent until he left care, of physical abuse. As a result he has been, and remains, severely damaged psychologically; he has been greatly affected also by the sudden death of his young wife in very sad circumstances on 1 April 1992, leaving B with a very young child to bring up. A major problem is that the damage is reflected in B's personality in such a way that he presents himself as an unreliable witness by the standards that an ordinary member of a jury is likely to apply. Thus, he is highly sensitive to any criticism and explosive in his reactions, particularly to any suggestion of sexual deviation on his part, although he told us frankly that there was a period in his youth when, because of the persistent sexual abuse to which he had been subjected, he began to question his own sexuality. He has been described also as manipulative and there are many matters on which he is particularly vulnerable in cross-examination.

9.33 One of these matters, which inevitably leads to prolonged cross-examination, is the sequence in which his complaints of abuse have emerged. It is not unusual for a complainant of sexual abuse or a child complainant generally to deny at first that any abuse has occurred but in B's case we have had before us a plethora of statements. These included eight main statements made to the police between 30 March 1992 and 8 February 1993 but B alleges that the police have failed to produce six other statements that he made to them. Rightly or wrongly, he complains also of insensitive behaviour, and in some cases, downright misconduct on the part of a small number of officers involved in interviewing him. In view of the potential difficulties, B was permitted exceptionally to draft his own statement to the Tribunal rather than be interviewed by a member of the Tribunal's team. The statement runs to 48 pages, in the course of which B alleges that he has been sexually abused by 32 persons (eight of whom are not named) and otherwise physically abused by 22. It is not surprising in the circumstances that B's recollection, in a limited number of instances, was shown by contemporary documents to be incorrect.

9.34 In the light of these and similar difficulties it was decided in March 1993 by the Crown Prosecution Service, in consultation with counsel, that reliance ought not to be placed on the evidence of witness B for the purpose of prosecuting any alleged abuser. However, this decision did not deter the police from further investigating after that date allegations that had been made by him; and it seems likely that he was required to attend at some stage for the trial of Howarth in 1994 as a potential witness, although he was not called to give evidence. It must be said also that his claim to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board in respect of the abuse that he suffered at the hands of Howarth, Norris and one other person dealt with later in this report has been settled for a proper sum; and he had no pending civil claim in respect of these matters when he gave evidence to the Tribunal. His libel action against Private Eye in respect of a collateral matter was also settled for proper sums in respect of damages and costs shortly before he gave evidence in the Anglesea libel action.

If the CPS decided his evidence couldn't be used to prosecute an offender in 1993 then why would it be different now?

- and maybe why the BBC don't want to rely on him if it comes to their own libel trial

If anyone missed the Richard Webster link I posted on the other thread -
http://www.richardwebster.net/whatthebbcdidnottellus.html
The next witness to appear on the programme was Steven Messham. He said that on one occasion, when he had been in the sick-bay with blood pouring from his mouth, he had been buggered by Howarth as he lay in bed. He said that on another occasion he was asked to take a hamper of food to Howarth’s flat, where he was buggered by Howarth over the kitchen table.

What the BBC did not tell us was that Messham claims he was sexually abused by no less than 49 different people. He also says he has been physically abused by 26 people. In 1994 the Crown Prosecution Service declined to bring his allegations against Howarth to court. None of his allegations has ever resulted in a conviction. In 1995 one of his most serious sexual allegations was rejected by a jury after barristers argued that it was a transparent fabrication.
 
Dean Nelson, the journalist Webster was particularly scathing of, shows up as the star of this particular page. I've not done anything to work out what the following is a part of yet but am posting the link now before I forget:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200001/cmselect/cmstnprv/89/8922.htm

OK I have determined that this was a result of Dean Nelson doing an investigation into the pay of some people by parliament when they may actually have been doing some Labour party campaign work. This lead him to complain to the Parliamentary Standards committee about John Reid and another MP. Part of Reids responses to the commissioner during the initial investigation involved attacking Nelsons conduct, and this included mentioning that Nelson was criticised by an inquiry into childrens homes in South Wales:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200001/cmselect/cmstnprv/89/8953.htm

In the end the commissioner concluded that there was not evidence of a sufficient standard to uphold the complaint against Reid and the other MP.
 
:facepalm:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/643832.stm

Victims of the "appalling suffering" uncovered by the UK's largest child abuse inquiry have given its findings a guarded welcome.

Lost in Care - the report of the Waterhouse inquiry into abuse in north Wales children's homes - revealed "appalling mistreatment" of children in care and made over 70 recommendations for improvement including the appointment of a children's commissioner for Wales.


But victim Timothy Williams gave the findings a guarded welcome.

"As long as the inquiry report isn't allowed to gather dust in Whitehall somewhere and they act on the implications of the report - and good comes of it - then it will have gone far enough," he said.

His optimism was echoed by another victim, Stephen Messham.

"We believe this report puts the record straight," he said.

edited to say that Im sure there is a good chance this article has already been mentioned in the past, and that I am in danger of going round in circles.
 
There is a whole section on the Anglesea Libel trial in the report, including assessments of the witness evidence. I posted it on the other thread -
http://tna.europarchive.org/20040216040105/http://www.doh.gov.uk/lostincare/20111.htm
ta.

So my reading of that would be that both the opinion of this inquiry and the Jury in the libel inquiry boils down to them arbitrarily deciding that the witnesses were unreliable because there were some minor indescrepencies in their evidence and they'd not presented themselves well, and had a bit of a dubious life story since leaving care, and that the copper's evidence was reliable because he was a copper who presented himself well, despite several indescrepencies in his evidence.

6 witnesses against one and the one is believed because he's a copper.

says it all really.
 
I can't find it now, but I read a legal article about the libel case making the point that the burden of proof the papers needed to win that case was at least as high as the CPS would have needed to gain a criminal conviction.

The papers however don't have the advantage of having any powers of arrest, powers to force an interview with a witness / suspect etc so have to produce the same burden of proof, but with one arm tied behind their backs.
 
The papers do have unofficial sources and means, which whilst not breaking the law, might be bending them ever so slightly. As a point of contact some sources could possibly be more likely to talk unofficially off the record to a journalist, than a copper on the record, which could lead to new lines of enquiry.
 
Journalist whistleblower in Mirror...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/opinion/news-opinion/eileen-fairweather-journalist-who-helped-1416666

She leaked the Jillings report which led to the Waterhouse abuse inquiry

'Victims say that a key figure in North Wales police was an abuser too and led a cover-up, while social services ignored complaints, victimised concerned staff, and aggressively suppressed 12 increasingly critical inquiry reports.

The outstandingly brave chairman of the council's social services committee, Labour councillor Malcolm King, was threatened by police, the council and their insurers with prison, bankruptcy, libel suits and forfeiting his home if he leaked the final devastating report by John Jillings to the Press.

Only 12 copies of the Jillings report were published and each was watermarked so the source of any leak could be identified. All were later pulped.

I wrote out the report's 300 pages by hand, to protect my source. It took me three days and, by agreement, I anonymously fed different sections to different papers. So did another whistleblower.

The resulting media firestorm led to the Waterhouse Inquiry.

Judge Waterhouse was horrified by the survivors' testimony, and his 1,000-page report is highly regarded.

Yet what people abused in these recurring care scandals really want is proper police investigation and arrests.

But to this day there has been no response to calls by the North Wales victims for a new investigation by an outside police force.

Steven's story makes clear why one is needed.'
 
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