Horizon: Should I eat Meat?
- Thread starter Maggot
- Start date
joustmaster
offcumdun
Its such a drop in the ocean.
A pork roast once a month or two. A steak once a fortnight.
Compared to the eggs in my tesco sandwich, the egg powder in all the groceries, the takeaway pizzas, kebabs, burgers, sausages, the meals out.
And the sad part is. It doesn't even bother me - I don't pay it a second thought.
joustmaster
offcumdun
a londoner hacking away at a cow with his penknife, then hanging it up in his studio flat for four weeks to age.
seems do able.
I've killed and prepared a good range of animals. Its a bit horrible tos tart with. But you get used to it. And now I think nothing of it.
All though, I can't be fucked with plucking a bird ever again. Its a right fuck on
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
The problem with most vegetarians and vegans ime is precisely the opposite. On the whole we are mealy mouthed and awkward about our ethical standpoint - we present our diets as mere personal preferences or lifestyle choices and maybe make secondary (much weaker imo) ethical points about diet and the environment. This is hardly surprising given how deeply embedded violence against animals and speciesism are in our culture, but in my experience people are actually very receptive to arguments for vegetarianism and veganism from an animal rights perspective, if they are presented in the right way. Veggies/Vegans imo need both to be tactical as well as not pussy-footing around their deeply held convictions.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I used to think along these lines, to the extent of doing it to show myself that I'm not a hypocrite.
But I've changed my mind. We are a society. Everybody doesn't have to be able to do everthing.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
It is the disconnect we have between shrink wrapped meat in the supermarket and actual live animals on a farm that bothers me.
It is why we don't buy sheep rather we buy mutton, we don't buy cow rather we buy beef, we don't buy pig rather we buy pork. All organised neatly to disconnect us from what is actually happening.
It is why we don't buy sheep rather we buy mutton, we don't buy cow rather we buy beef, we don't buy pig rather we buy pork. All organised neatly to disconnect us from what is actually happening.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Kind of. Product of 1066, that.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think we should all defer to the opinions of small children.I think if you stood outside McDonalds with a "pretty cow"and educated the little nippers about where their happy meal starts from then they might not be so keen.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Yes, I am aware the names didn't come out of some Machiavellian meat marketing board tactic. In fact I think we have discussed it on here before. Still the disconnect happens, at least I would argue it does.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Well if you eat a lot of that shit then you may have a point!
I don't find it particularly difficult to find well sourced burgers when I'm out and about and I generally only eat kebabs when I'm pissed. I will look for organic and 'ethically reared' options in restaurants, though granted, it's not always easy. Decent sausages are easy to find.
As I said I'm not overly concerned about the eggs in other products but thinking about it we don't buy that much processed stuff.
The point is that people pick a point at which they feel comfortable. If that point can be encouraged gradually to the 'greener' side then welfare and environmental improvements will follow. Those trying to stop people eating meat or using animal products altogether are on a hiding to nothing, and those playing the morality card are just uppish wankers.
Last edited:
el-ahrairah
forward communism, forward gerbils!
Jeff Robinson The reason why vegetarians tend towards being mealy mouthed about it is because when you say, actually, i think it's wrong to cause suffering to animals simply for our own pleasure and i think that people who do so are lacking some sort of basic morality, like psychopaths or Tories...
well, that causes offence, doesn't it. meat eaters are generally very pleased with being meat eaters and think they;'re really big and clever every time they fire up a barbeque. and most of us have friends who are meat eaters. so you learn not to bother banging on about it, cos the meat eaters get all offended or they start getting angry with you or throwing meat at you. if you cut off all ties with people who you like apart from the fact that they're sadistic towards animals you end up in those weird vegan only cults and that's even more unhealthy than putting up with your mates sick eating habits
so in the end you keep schtum about it, except on the internet, of course, which is made for arguments. and don't get me started on when someone you don't know finds out you don't eat meat. fucking hell, you might as well admit to being a child molester or a nazi re-enactor. they take it as a challenge to try and prove that animals are meant for eating.
the three stages of meat-twat arguing at vegetarians. my apologies to those who have made these arguments already on this thread, but they're stupid and you know it.
1. human beings have always eaten meat.
response: fuck off, dickhead. that's too stupid to even argue with.
2. but what would happen to all the cows?
response: fuck off dickhead, that's too stupid even to argue with.
3. but if we weren;'t supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat.
response: fuck off dickhead, that's from the simpsons and it was used ironically to demonstrate the poor quality debating skills of homer simpson if you don't know how stupid that is, you probably shoulndn't be allowed to make your own decisions.
well, that causes offence, doesn't it. meat eaters are generally very pleased with being meat eaters and think they;'re really big and clever every time they fire up a barbeque. and most of us have friends who are meat eaters. so you learn not to bother banging on about it, cos the meat eaters get all offended or they start getting angry with you or throwing meat at you. if you cut off all ties with people who you like apart from the fact that they're sadistic towards animals you end up in those weird vegan only cults and that's even more unhealthy than putting up with your mates sick eating habits
so in the end you keep schtum about it, except on the internet, of course, which is made for arguments. and don't get me started on when someone you don't know finds out you don't eat meat. fucking hell, you might as well admit to being a child molester or a nazi re-enactor. they take it as a challenge to try and prove that animals are meant for eating.
the three stages of meat-twat arguing at vegetarians. my apologies to those who have made these arguments already on this thread, but they're stupid and you know it.
1. human beings have always eaten meat.
response: fuck off, dickhead. that's too stupid to even argue with.
2. but what would happen to all the cows?
response: fuck off dickhead, that's too stupid even to argue with.
3. but if we weren;'t supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat.
response: fuck off dickhead, that's from the simpsons and it was used ironically to demonstrate the poor quality debating skills of homer simpson if you don't know how stupid that is, you probably shoulndn't be allowed to make your own decisions.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes. I agree that it makes a contribution to that disconnect.
fredfelt
Mostly unknown member
[QUOTE="weltweit, post: 13345189, member: 32888"... Sure cows pigs chickens only exist because we eat them but that does not mean factory farming is right, massed chicken sheds are just wrong but equally you can't expect people to not buy chicken that is so much cheaper than free range. People do shop with value in mind..[/QUOTE]
I object to this stance - but accept it's down to my personal beliefs regarding the sentience of animals. I think low welfare meat it absolutely unnecessary, shows no compassion, and it is ultimately disrespectful to use affordability as a justification for low animal welfare.
If cheap meat was necessary for a healthy life I'd be more accepting, however the output of factory farming is generally processed meat, which as we have seen is probably detrimental to health. For some cost can always be used as a justification for cruel treatment of animals - if find this objectionable.
I do appreciate that this point of view is crossing the line for some and moving into hectoring and preaching. However animals are powerless to change things. Humans have the capacity to stop a huge amount of unnecessary suffering by raising minimum levels of animal welfare.
Environmental impact is another issue. As far as I understand low welfare is often equates to low emissions. Battery chicken is one of the most efficient forms of using animals to provide nutrition. Personally I think the only solution is to eat higher welfare meat less often - or if people choose not to eat meat at all.
I object to this stance - but accept it's down to my personal beliefs regarding the sentience of animals. I think low welfare meat it absolutely unnecessary, shows no compassion, and it is ultimately disrespectful to use affordability as a justification for low animal welfare.
If cheap meat was necessary for a healthy life I'd be more accepting, however the output of factory farming is generally processed meat, which as we have seen is probably detrimental to health. For some cost can always be used as a justification for cruel treatment of animals - if find this objectionable.
I do appreciate that this point of view is crossing the line for some and moving into hectoring and preaching. However animals are powerless to change things. Humans have the capacity to stop a huge amount of unnecessary suffering by raising minimum levels of animal welfare.
Environmental impact is another issue. As far as I understand low welfare is often equates to low emissions. Battery chicken is one of the most efficient forms of using animals to provide nutrition. Personally I think the only solution is to eat higher welfare meat less often - or if people choose not to eat meat at all.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
el-ahrairah, I don't go around calling people I see eating steaks 'murderers' and so forth because obviously that would be counter-productive. However, if I'm at a restaurant or a dinner party or a wedding or a bbq or whatever and people notice I am eating vegan they often ask me why. At that point I explain my reasoning and don't hide behind relativist arguments or whatnot for fear of offending - they asked after all! I often hear the extremely weak arguments for meat eating that you listed, but they obviously don't withstand scrutiny. In the end most people I talk with concede that they can't justify meat eating and would like to stop, but lack the will or the discipline or something like that. Veggies and Vegans must stop hiding our views imo - especially when we're asked about them!
weltweit
Well-Known Member
But there have been experiments to try to get people to pay for more expensive and ethically reared meats and people in the main revert to buying cheaply. I am not saying it is right but people are used to looking for value when they shop and the disconnect between animal welfare and value in the shops is real. It would be best if all meat was ethically raised.
It is objectionable. But it is a mass movement I am afraid.
What particular animal welfare issues are you concerned about?
For me, battery/factory chicken is wrong, crated veal, lamb ..
But how would you go about persuading people who are used to eating meat a few times a week?
el-ahrairah
forward communism, forward gerbils!
life's too short i guess, jeff. maybe you move in more civilised circles than me, but i got sick of it the arguments, and of presenting myself as a sanctimonious joyless moral puritan.
these days i don't do drugs, so the only pleasure i get is in being morally superior to other people, hence half-heartedly joining in this thread.
these days i don't do drugs, so the only pleasure i get is in being morally superior to other people, hence half-heartedly joining in this thread.
But we don't buy mutton, we buy lamb.
Good point well made, thraigo - Another sterling contribution to the thread. Keep up the good work
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Indeed. And oddly we use the anglosaxon chicken for animal and meat even though there's a posh french word poultry for the meat.
I agree with ww that there's a disconnect between the meat and how it is produced. This is a recent yhing though, a product of industrialisation.
editor
hiraethified
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Well according to most veggies meat is got from animals that are kept in cages and force fed, after being separated from mummy and daddy, despite this they will eat food containing animal byproducts and wear leather, at least vegans are ethically consistent.this is exactly it. most people don't give a fuck. half of meat eaters are hypocrites who don't care what happens to the animals as long as they don't have to see any suffering, and the other half get hard ons for animals being killed and fantasise about eating endangered species. fact.
fuck the lot of them. and don't get me started on vegans
editor
hiraethified
I've never striven for 'ethical consistency' but I think people can - and have - made a difference by voting with their wallets/getting involved in campaigns when it comes to the ethics of the meat/animal industry.
The campaign against animal testing is a good example of that.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
There is an argument that to eat cheese but not veal is ethically less sound than eating both.
But all farmers kill animals that eat crops such as rabbits. And take up land that animals would otherwise inhabit. The moral lines on this are fuzzy for all of us, vegans included.
But all farmers kill animals that eat crops such as rabbits. And take up land that animals would otherwise inhabit. The moral lines on this are fuzzy for all of us, vegans included.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
What part of that are you suggesting bolsters your position?
That humans have only been eating meat for 2.5 million years?
editor
hiraethified
The bit where it was claimed that humans ate meat from the second they 'crawled out of the swamp.' HTH.What part of that are you suggesting bolsters your position?
That humans have only been eating meat for 2.5 million years?
Maggot
The Cake of Liberty
can you explain the environmental damage of imported weed?
And of course that's true, it's not the odd well-sourced steak that's the problem, it's the intensive factory farming where most of our meat is produced.
Manter
Lunch Mob
completely agree with you. Intensive and factory farming is disgusting, morally and ethically*. Having seen it once I am very careful about what I eat now- but I do still eat meat. And drink milk. Organic, free range, etc, but I still eat it. Everyone has their own ethical code, I guess
*and probably a false economy- the amount of problems caused by animals being fed mashed up bits of other animals or inbreeding or over treatment with growth hormones or antibiotics must reach a tipping point where even those who don't feel revulsion feel it no longer makes sense, i'd have thought
edited to correct quoting fuck up
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Well given that modern humans have been on the planet for around 200,000 years and the article that you've linked to suggests that our ancestors were butchering meat 2.5 million years ago, I'd say you've proved his point for him, no?
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
these threads have been going on since before you were here and attached to spy's coat tails permanentlyGood point well made, thraigo - Another sterling contribution to the thread. Keep up the good work
i've made my arguments, they will never be good enough for the chest beating meat eaters of urban
and after being somewhere last night where no food was involved and i did not mention being vegi to be questioned on it and hear their excuses and how they only eat this meat or that thing rarely etc for the 20 thousandth time after someone else mentioned it, i am just fed up with it
Similar threads
