Horizon: Should I eat Meat?

[Spymaster]

and this is why i shouldn't even have bothered

Well yes.

If you're going to object to meat eaters answering vegetarian's questions then this is most certainly not the thread for you!

 

[ddraig]

ever so sorry boss!

 

[ska invita]

tbh a pig could stand in front of me and deliver an impassioned speech on the joys of vegetarianism and I'd still eat it.

Birds eat insects. Sharks eat seals. Cats eat mice. Lions eat wildebeest. Humans eat meat. C'est la vie.

yeah i agree. thats why i like war so much. when i see someone pleading for their life i like to deliver a kick to the stomach before smashing their heads in with a rock. its just nature. i didnt make the rules...

 

[Spymaster]

ever so sorry boss!

Apology accepted.

 

[editor]

Humans eat meat. C'est la vie.

Not all. C'est la vie.

 

[joustmaster]

and this is why i shouldn't even have bothered

I asked a pretty straight forward question.

 

[Spymaster]

Yeah, pretty much my position. Although wish it was easier to tell what level of intensity chickens have been reared at. Would be nice to see pictures of dairy sources stamped across the various dairy products too.

Aye. We only buy free range eggs but life's too short to be researching the provenance of all the egg ingredients of every product we buy.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Unless you are relatively wealthy or very disciplined, it is hard to be a consistently ethical meat eater. It's also hard to be a consistently ethical veggie, too, mind. Meat/not-meat isn't the only ethical dividing line.

There are limits to what can be achieved through individual consumer choices. Some changes need to come from collective action.

Any collective action to improve animal welfare in farming will need vegetarians to make alliances with meat-eaters who want to improve the lot of the animals they eat. A vegetarian (well vegan, strictly speaking - dairy involves the killing of calves) who wants to make a difference has to go beyond shouting 'nobody needs to eat meat'. That kind of hectoring will achieve the sum total of fuck all.

 

[Spymaster]

Tried to watch but seeing meat being eaten made me feel sick

Your life must be very difficult.

 

[Spymaster]

Any collective action to improve animal welfare in farming will need vegetarians to make alliances with meat-eaters who want to improve the lot of the animals they eat.

Make us an organic lamb bhuna every now and then?

 

[co-op]

Are you asking thins because of the heinous practices in the dairy industry?

No, I do not eat non-organic dairy.

Isn't there a problem with dairy in general? I mean that in effect, meat is a by-product of the dairy industry rather than the other way round.(This argument only really applies to cows/beef obviously).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Isn't there a problem with dairy in general? I mean that in effect, meat is a by-product of the dairy industry rather than the other way round.(This argument only really applies to cows/beef obviously).

Specifically, veal is a by-product of dairy.

 

[co-op]

It's also hard to be a consistently ethical veggie, too, mind.

This ^^.

I lived ayear or two in Almeria province in Spain where most of the winter salads, tomatoes, aubergines etc are grown because it's frost free all winter down on the coast. They are grown in gigantic polytunnels called plasticos locally. They are horrible places, worked in by illegal workers, originally mostly Moroccans, now mostly Senegalese who are subjected to terrible exploitation and poisoned by chemicals and pesticides. They are massively ecologically destructive and (since products like tomatoes & lettuces are mostly water) they involve the de facto export of water from the driest place in Europe to countries like the UK and Germany. Apparently this is market-driven "efficiency".

The food is also shit since it has to be driven thousands of miles in refrigerator lorries and therefore has to be picked way early. It's mind-boggling the bullshit involved in the production & delivery of some utterly pointless Iceberg lettuce the vast majority of which which will be thrown away but is grown and driven all that way simply in order to decorate a plate of pub food as an unwanted "garnish" to give an impression of 'freshness' or 'healthiness'.

Food production under capitalism will always involve immense amounts of cruelty and ecological destruction.

 

[Spymaster]

Specifically, veal is a by-product of dairy.

It's only veal isn't it?

 

[fredfelt]

Unless you are relatively wealthy or very disciplined, it is hard to be a consistently ethical meat eater. It's also hard to be a consistently ethical veggie, too, mind. Meat/not-meat isn't the only ethical dividing line.

There are limits to what can be achieved through individual consumer choices. Some changes need to come from collective action.

Any collective action to improve animal welfare in farming will need vegetarians to make alliances with meat-eaters who want to improve the lot of the animals they eat. A vegetarian (well vegan, strictly speaking - dairy involves the killing of calves) who wants to make a difference has to go beyond shouting 'nobody needs to eat meat'. That kind of hectoring will achieve the sum total of fuck all.

I'm in agreement that in order to bring about social change collective action is often necessary. However, for me, meat is a direct representation of an animal which would have invariably suffered to end up on a plate. I simply couldn't enjoy eating meat - especially in the knowledge that an average Westenor is responsible for the lives of around 200 animals a year.

The collective action argument is also a way to absolve personal responsibility, blame the system and carry on with business as usual. eg Why should I give a shit about global warming while China continues to build coal power stations etc.

I also think the 'nobody needs to eat meat' hectoring that you attribute to vegetarians is very much in the minority. For me I accept that eating meat has a place and is simply they way of the world. The problem I have is the amount of meat that most have come used to and the appalling level of respect that's shown to the majority of meat that's consumed. Additionally as a rule I don't hector people about their choices, unless they wish to debate them or I am asked to justify my choices.

 

[co-op]

FWIW I'd be highly suspicious of any "organic" veg coming from Spain, particularly that from Almeria or Murcia. The plasticos are like the wild west - if a producer can get loads of extra money for finding a bit of paperwork showing that they are organic, they'll find the paperwork but it will be mostly meaningless. It's absolutely clear there's no meaningful organic growing going on there - and I knew people who were working to try and enforce standards there. Really, if you're going to buy from southern Spain buy the non-organic, it'll be exactly the same stuff but cheaper.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's only veal isn't it?

Yes. Beef cows are different from dairy cows but veal comes from dairy cows. Ethically speaking if you eat cheese you may as well also eat veal. Bit ironic given veal's rep but pink veal can be very ethical.

 

[Spymaster]

- especially in the knowledge that an average Westenor is responsible for the lives of around 200 animals a year.

Where's that from?

 

[story]

Isn't there a problem with dairy in general? I mean that in effect, meat is a by-product of the dairy industry rather than the other way round.(This argument only really applies to cows/beef obviously).

Yes, it's all pretty nasty.

I actually don't drink milk at all, and I try only to eat cheese and butter that comes from a small local producer rather than a large conglomerate.

We do what we can while living as we want to. Priorities shift over time.

I used to only eat wild fish because I thought it better for my health, but then had a bit of the think about the depletion of the oceans so I switched to farmed fish.

I stopped eating meat in the eighties, but recently started again. My own health is better for it, and it is now fairly easy to source properly husbanded meat. I pay through the nose for it (unless it's free game meat) but I only have it rarely. That option wasn't available in the eighties.

I have eaten veal since I started eating meat again. It was at a pub connected to an organic dairy and beef farm. The farmers had decided that killing the calves and simply throwing them away was worse than raising them for veal, and I am minded to agree. This particular place is very involved with decent respectful animal husbandry. I'd not eat veal elsewhere because of the cruelty involved, but I did at this place because the cruelty was diminished, and it seemed less wasteful, less sinful to eat the animal than to dispose of it as surplus.

I used to be far more absolute about stuff like this. As I get older, I seem to be less so.

 

[Spymaster]

The collective action argument is also a way to absolve personal responsibility, blame the system and carry on with business as usual.

It's also absolutely logically correct though.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Unless you are relatively wealthy or very disciplined, it is hard to be a consistently ethical meat eater. It's also hard to be a consistently ethical veggie, too, mind. Meat/not-meat isn't the only ethical dividing line.

There are limits to what can be achieved through individual consumer choices. Some changes need to come from collective action.

Any collective action to improve animal welfare in farming will need vegetarians to make alliances with meat-eaters who want to improve the lot of the animals they eat. A vegetarian (well vegan, strictly speaking - dairy involves the killing of calves) who wants to make a difference has to go beyond shouting 'nobody needs to eat meat'. That kind of hectoring will achieve the sum total of fuck all.

I agree that hectoring isn't going going to get vegetarians/vegans very far, but respectful dialogues about the ethics of meat eating are important. For many veggies their diets are not a mere life-style choice but a matter of justice to animals.

And again, I agree about the need for collective action for animals but you are assuming that the goal of such campaigns is to 'improve animal welfare in farming'. While I'm not against some involvements in such campaigns, you are simply projecting what you want as meat eater onto the goals of vegetarians and vegans. Many Veggies - at least vegans anyway - want an end to the killing of animals for human consumption, not to better regulate it. The sort of collective action I'm primarily interested in is the kind that promotes alternatives to relying on animal products.

What you seem to be saying is that for us veggies/vegans to be effective we have to effectively shut up about what we believe in. That's not a good start for the sort of alliance you claim to be advocating.

 

[fredfelt]

Haven't watched it and cannot comment on it. But as far as the environmental cost is concerned, I long ago took the decision never to have children, partly because of the environmental cost to the planet, and I reckon that buys me a lifetime of meat consumption with a clear conscience.

I find that stance quite odd. I don't want to criticise, just explore your choices...

Would it be more honest to say that you are not interested in having children. Additionally you also enjoy meat, enjoy it enough to be unconcerned about the environmental impact of your diet, at least not enough to stop eating meat?

On a personal level regardless of other choices in my life I just wouldn't feel comfortable with eating meat - so I don't. It's an absolute and as it's something I don't do. It's no sacrifice.

In jest I have used a similar argument to yours to justify my decisions. I recently splashed out on a big fuck off TV. When being questioned on how this fits with in my lifestyle choices which are generally low carbon leaning (vege, rarely drive etc) I used the same argument. The reality is that I wanted a big fuck off TV.

 

[co-op]

I find that stance quite odd. I don't want to criticise, just explore your choices...

Would it be more honest to say that you are not interested in having children. Additionally you also enjoy meat, enjoy it enough to be unconcerned about the environmental impact of your diet, at least not enough to stop eating meat?

On a personal level regardless of other choices in my life I just wouldn't feel comfortable with eating meat - so I don't. It's an absolute and as it's something I don't do it's no sacrifice.

In jest I have used a similar argument to yours to justify my decisions. I recently splashed out on a big fuck off TV. When being questioned on how this fits with in my lifestyle choices which are generally low carbon leaning (vege, rarely drive etc) I used the same argument. The reality is that I wanted a big fuck off TV.

Fair point this. I stopped flying years ago but then had to make an 'emergency' flight and God the whole experience is so shit from start to finish that now I hardly feel I can claim any credit for not flying, frankly I wouldn't unless I had to.

 

[fredfelt]

It's also absolutely logically correct though.

No, not really. I would say both individual and collective action is usually required for social change.

 

[ddraig]

thanks Jeff Robinson
you are wasting your time and effort tho, sadly

 

[Spymaster]

thanks Jeff Robinson
you are wasting your time and effort tho, sadly

Not at all.

Historically Jeff has been the ONLY vegetarian worth reading on these boards, though Fred seems also to be providing some level of debate, in contrast to the usual vacuousness delivered by yourself and other veggies on these threads.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I Many Veggies - at least vegans anyway - want an end to the killing of animals for human consumption,

But this will never, ever happen. So let's aim for something achievable instead - the reduction of intensive farming methods, more humane farming practices, a reduction in the use of pesticides, embrace the idea of locally grown/reared food to reduce transport mileage etc etc

 

[Mr Retro]

I simply couldn't enjoy eating meat - especially in the knowledge that an average Westenor is responsible for the lives of around 200 animals a year.

Where does that stat come from?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Not all. C'est la vie.

History would seem to suggest otherwise.

 

[editor]

History would seem to suggest otherwise.

How far back you going with this?

Did prehistoric man eat intensely farmed processed meat then?