Horizon: Should I eat Meat?

[Spymaster]

For example, in so far as a non-human animal feels pain to the same extent as a human animal does, then that should not be given less weight morally merely because she is not a human.

Ok, so we're back to pain again.

So I'll return to this:

For me all beings with similar interests deserve to have those interests protected equally. This is not to say that all beings should be treated equally, but that equal weight should be placed on their similar interests irrespective of species. When those interests are fundamental enough they should be protected as rights. I believe that all sentient creatures should have fundamental rights to life and freedom from suffering that can't be trumped by things like mere human pleasure, convenience or entertainment. To exclude or minimise the interests of other beings merely because they are of a different species requires a good explanation, one that I have yet to be presented with.

Why do you believe that animals have a right to life?

I see the right to life as a purely human concept that is completely absent in nature. Why are we beholden to uphold an animals "right to life" any more than a tiger or a shark would respect a human's or any other animal's?

You say "mere human pleasure" but I'd argue that there is nothing mere about it and that human pleasure is one of the most fundamentally important aspects of human life.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

As I said very early on in the thread - I care a bit. enough to only buy high quality beef and pork. barn raised hens and eggs. but when it comes to eating out, takeaways, milk and egg products in other stuff, leather and other animal products, I can't be arsed.

And you think this stance is so enlightened and mine so crazy because? Presumably because yours is closer to the status quo

 

[joustmaster]

And you think this stance is so enlightened and mine so crazy because? Presumably because yours is closer to the status quo

no, because yours is so different that it seems silly.
in much the same way mine does to you, i'm sure.

 

[ddraig]

Ok, so we're back to pain again.

So I'll return to this:



Why do you believe that animals have a right to life?

I see the right to life as a purely human concept that is completely absent in nature. Why are we beholden to uphold an animals "right to life" any more than a tiger or a shark would respect a human's or any other animal's?

You say "mere human pleasure" but I'd argue that there is nothing mere about it and that human pleasure is one of the most fundamentally important aspects of human life.

But animals killing other animals to survive is nature and the food chain
You will of course say that so is humans killing animals and we are top of the food chain
But we have evolved and there is a choice (with usual caveats) so you actively choose to have animals killed for your pleasure. I don't. We'll never agree that either is right

 

[bmd]

Ok, so we're back to pain again.

So I'll return to this:



Why do you believe that animals have a right to life?

I see the right to life as a purely human concept that is completely absent in nature. Why are we beholden to uphold an animals "right to life" any more than a tiger or a shark would respect a human's or any other animal's?

You say "mere human pleasure" but I'd argue that there is nothing mere about it and that human pleasure is one of the most fundamentally important aspects of human life.

Because the difference between us and other living things on the planet is that we can choose. We have self awareness. And we are at the top of the food chain, expanding every year and we are wiping everything else out because of that fact.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Why do you believe that animals have a right to life?

I see the right to life as a human concept that is completely absent in nature. Why are we beholden to respect an animals "right to life" any more than a tiger or a shark would respect a humans?

You say "mere human pleasure" but I'd argue that there is nothing mere about it and that human pleasure is one of the most fundamentally important aspects of human life.

I've already explained why I think life is important to all sentient beings - because it is a necessary precondition for having good experiences. I have also outlined a secondary argument which is that I think that killing animals for non-essential reasons cheapens them as beings and opens the door to all the other abuses we inflict upon animals. I think this interest is of such fundamental importance it should be translated into a right - which means nothing more than a protected interest for me.

The reason why we are 'beholden' to respect the right to life of animals as humans is because we are moral agents. Tigers and sharks are not. That means that we owe duties to animals that they do not owe to us. Just like adults owe duties to children that they do not owe to adults and the mentally well owe duties to the mentally ill that the mentally ill do not owe them.

I agree that pleasure is one of the most fundamental aspects of human life, its also the one of the most fundamental aspects of life for most sentient creatures. We cannot inflict any harm in the pursuit of pleasure, we can't torture cats for pleasure for example. And the pleasure of using animal products is a trivial one weighed against the death and suffering we inflict on animals to have it.

 

[Obnoxiousness]

I've stopped eating mammals and I'm about to cease eating dairy products too, including milk.

I hate to see my fellow mammals slaughtered. But as for birds, eggs and fish... I do feel less guilty about consuming them, so I will continue to do so.

 

[bmd]

I've already explained why I think life is important to all sentient beings - because it is a necessary precondition for having good experiences. I have also outlined a secondary argument which is that I think that killing animals for non-essential reasons cheapens them as beings and opens the door to all the other abuses we inflict upon. I think this interest is of such fundamental importance it should be translated into a right - which means nothing more than a protected interest for me.

The reason why we are 'beholden' to respect the right to life of animals as humans is because we are moral agents. Tigers and sharks are not. That means that we owe duties to animals that they do not owe to us. Just like adults owe duties to children that they do not owe to adults and the mentally well owe duties to the mentally ill that the mentally ill do not owe them.

I agree that pleasure is one of the most fundamental aspects of human life, its also the one of the most fundamental aspects of life for most sentient creatures. We cannot inflict any harm in the pursuit on pleasure, we can't torture cats for pleasure for example. And the pleasure of using animal products is a trivial one weighed against the death and suffering we inflict on animals to have it.

Too fucking right. Spot on.

 

[Obnoxiousness]

How cute is this little bugger? Eh?

 

[bmd]

It wants to eat you.

 

[ddraig]

Countdown "yeah but bacon..." Post

 

[Spymaster]

I've already explained why I think life is important to all sentient beings - because it is a necessary precondition for having good experiences. I have also outlined a secondary argument which is that I think that killing animals for non-essential reasons cheapens them as beings and opens the door to all the other abuses we inflict upon. I think this interest is of such fundamental importance it should be translated into a right - which means nothing more than a protected interest for me.

The reason why we are 'beholden' to respect the right to life of animals as humans is because we are moral agents. Tigers and sharks are not. That means that we owe duties to animals that they do not owe to us. Just like adults owe duties to children that they do not owe to adults and the mentally well owe duties to the mentally ill that the mentally ill do not owe them.

I agree that pleasure is one of the most fundamental aspects of human life, its also the one of the most fundamental aspects of life for most sentient creatures. We cannot inflict any harm in the pursuit on pleasure, we can't torture cats for pleasure for example. And the pleasure of using animal products is a trivial one weighed against the death and suffering we inflict on animals to have it.

Touché.

I disagree with the notion of animals right to life. I also disagree that we owe any duty to animals that aren't pets or endangered, beyond trying our best to ensure they suffer as little as possible for our pleasure, and given that the death of one cow can give pleasure to a couple of hundred people I think it's a fair trade. To me their deaths are of no consequence.

You've made good points and it's been interesting. I'll watch to see how you get on with LBJ now!

 

[bmd]

Countdown "yeah but bacon..." Post

Will you PLEASE stop doing this. It's passive/aggressive nonsense and doesn't help. If you want to address an argument that hasn't been made yet then make it and counter it.

 

[bmd]

Touché.

I disagree with the notion of animals right to life. I also disagree that we owe any duty to animals that aren't pets or endangered, beyond trying our best to ensure they suffer as little as possible for our pleasure, and given that the death of one cow can give pleasure to a couple of hundred people I think it's a fair trade.

You've made good points and it's been interesting. I'll watch to see how you get on with LBJ now!

Given that we have just reached the tipping point with the elephant population in Africa, that there are more of them being killed that are born every year, what is your view about the elephants right to life? I know that they are killed for Ivory but still, I think it's the same argument. That some people like Ivory and therefore the elephant should provide it with the loss of their life being a given.

 

[Spymaster]

Because the difference between us and other living things on the planet is that we can choose. We have self awareness. And we are at the top of the food chain, expanding every year and we are wiping everything else out because of that fact.

Sure, but that doesn't address the right to life or convince me to choose not too!

 

[Spymaster]

Given that we have just reached the tipping point with the elephant population in Africa, that there are more of them being killed that are born every year, what is your view about the elephants right to life?

I'm wholly against any species being exploited to extinction.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I'm wholly against any species being exploited to extinction.

Forget extinction. What about killing one elephant for its ivory? Assuming that the ivory brings pleasure to human beings?

 

[bmd]

Sure, but that doesn't address the right to life or convince me to choose not too!

Fair point. I think that as human beings we choose whether any other living thing on this planet has the right to live or not. I believe that by having that responsibility we need to factor into our decision making process what their rights should be. My belief is that their fundamental right is to life, to not take second place to us just because we can kill them.

 

[Spymaster]

Forget extinction. What about killing one elephant for its ivory? Assuming that the ivory brings pleasure to human beings?

I was just thinking about that.

I suppose the logical extension of my position would be that it's ok if they don't suffer and aren't endangered, but that's not the way I feel. I guess that's where I draw my line, but accept the hypocrisy therein.

 

[bmd]

I'm wholly against any species being exploited to extinction.

So if we could farm elephants for ivory you would be ok with that? I can see where you're coming from and don't misunderstand me, I am not sat here peering down on you from the moral high ground. Not at all. Stupid place to be lol.

I couldn't bear to think of elephants being farmed for ivory. I keep coming back to a picture of humans in a pen being farmed. You might find that daft but that's pretty much where all my beliefs come from. That animals can feel things and that they would live in terrible conditions and then be killed for me.

 

[Spymaster]

So if we could farm elephants for ivory you would be ok with that? I can see where you're coming from and don't misunderstand me, I am not sat here peering down on you from the moral high ground. Not at all. Stupid place to be lol.

I couldn't bear to think of elephants being farmed for ivory.

Yep. See #439.

 

[maomao]

Has anyone made any jolly remarks about how nice bacon is yet? That's normally what a meat-eating thread needs.

 

[joustmaster]

Has anyone made any jolly remarks about how nice bacon is yet? That's normally what a meat-eating thread needs.

just ddraig

 

[joustmaster]

Forget extinction. What about killing one elephant for its ivory? Assuming that the ivory brings pleasure to human beings?

As long as its farmed well or is in abundance.
I feel the same about fur and hunting

 

[ddraig]

just ddraig

no one else made those comments of course, oh no
earlier on and they prob would have been made if not headed off

just reading for now!
Jeff doing a much much better job than me

 

[maomao]

Forget extinction. What about killing one elephant for its ivory? Assuming that the ivory brings pleasure to human beings?

If there were an excess of elephants in the world then yes. I'd rather it was hunted than farmed though. And I wouldn't eat chickens or cows if they were endangered species.

 

[joustmaster]

no one else made those comments of course, oh no
earlier on and they prob would have been made if not headed off

just reading for now!
Jeff doing a much much better job than me

bacon has been mentioned a few times. but not as a dig at vegans.
but its good that you're defending the thread from things that aren't being said.

 

[ddraig]

nm

 

[Jeff Robinson]

As long as its farmed well or is in abundance.
I feel the same about fur and hunting

Again, your attitude precisely exemplifies the problem here, the speciesism I was talking about earlier. Because an elephant is not a human you think it can be killed to satisfy utterly trivial human preferences. Elephants are up there with the great apes and cetaceans as being amongst the most intelligent animals in the world. They are self-aware and exhibit a wide variety of behaviours including those associated with grief, learning, play, altruism, compassion, cooperation, self-awareness, memory and language. Killing such a beautiful and complex creature for no better a reason than for its ivory should be regarded by right-thinking people as utterly outrageous.

 

[joustmaster]

Again, your attitude precisely exemplifies the problem here, the speciesism I was talking about earlier. Because an elephant is not a human you think it can be killed to satisfy utterly trivial human preferences. Elephants are up there with the great apes and cetaceans as being amongst the most intelligent animals in the world. They are self-aware and exhibit a wide variety of behaviours including those associated with grief, learning, play, altruism, compassion, cooperation, self-awareness, memory and language. Killing such a beautiful and complex creature for no better a reason than for its ivory should be regarded by right-thinking people as utterly outrageous.

I disagree.