Horizon: Should I eat Meat?

[littlebabyjesus]

It's totally anthropomorphic, dogs have "characters" because they've become socialised through interaction with humans down the millennia. Cattle do not. Don't project your experiences of pets onto all animals.

Cows have characters sure. They have friends in the herd different favourite spots, are spooked by different stuff. Have emotional responses peculiar to them.

What else do you think character is. Often people do a reverse of anthropomorphising, which is thinking humans are more different from other animals than we really are.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Which brings us (as usual) to an argument against a capitalist system that can make a factory chicken, shipped from a farm on the other side of the country, cheaper than one from a local organic farm. It's not an argument against eating the chicken though.

Forget the other side of the country, try the other side of the world. Pizza express use chicken from fucking Thailand for example. My point is that the 'humane' raising of an animal to kill and cruel intensive factory farming of animals exist on a continuum of violence against animals that serve to legitimate each other. Because the human interests are not significant here (ask a veggie or a vegan - we really don't lead impoverished lives if we do it right!) then its easy for most people to justify an action that harms animal interests if it accrues a benefit to a human being. See for example Joustmaster above: 'You see, I'd prefer that all animals have a better life before being killed for food. But if they don't, I'm not too fussed.'

By definition it's a diet that's limited in terms of tastes available to it. Not one I'm prepared to go for I'm afraid.

Not at all, the combination of textures and flavours available to a creative vegan chef are for all intents and purposes unlimited. Its just that people aren't aware of it!

 

[sleaterkinney]

Cows have characters sure. They have friends in the herd different favourite spots, are spooked by different stuff. Have emotional responses peculiar to them.

For me character indicates a depth of emotional response I've never witnessed in cattle, they are very simple animals. I've honestly never seen this "friends in the herd" business. .
They can develop habits, is that what you're thinking of?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Good dairy farmers know to pay attention to friendships in the herd. Lining cows up next to their mates at milking time increases yields.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Not at all, the combination of textures and flavours available to a creative vegan chef are for all intents and purposes unlimited. Its just that people aren't aware of it!

Basic maths says that by voluntarily choosing to exclude a huge range of ingredients you reduce the available choices. But vegan food can be great, of course. Fuck, I even had some once

 

[sleaterkinney]

Good dairy farmers know to pay attention to friendships in the herd. Lining cows up next to their mates at milking time increases yields.

I haven't seen any dairy farmer I know doing that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Got shit internet access this week. Jeffr you've made a load of points I want to reply to but can't do them justice tonight. Sorry, they are good points that deserve a full reply. Stupid countryside.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Basic maths says that by voluntarily choosing to exclude a huge range of ingredients you reduce the available choices. But vegan food can be great, of course. Fuck, I even had some once

Sure basic maths would but by cutting out many of the basic staples of a British diet (Meat, fish, eggs, butter, cheese, milk, yogurt etc) it forces you to think outside the side the box and get creative with ingredients. Since I've become vegan I can honestly say I cook with a much wider variety of ingredients than back in the day when I used to fall back on the usual meat and two veg formula. Also, if you really think that you'll miss the taste of meat, cheese and so on, veggies are becoming incredibly creative at developing convincing substitutions. Check out some of the shit these crazy bastards are coming up with! https://www.youtube.com/user/everydaydish (seriously doubt I'm gonna persuade you, but hopefully I might sway somebody who's reading!)

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Got shit internet access this week. Jeffr you've made a load of points I want to reply to but can't do them justice tonight. Sorry, they are good points that deserve a full reply. Stupid countryside.

Please don't do it tomorrow. I ended up doing no work today and I don't want to get sucked in for another day!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

am stuck here all week

 

[weltweit]

Going to watch the program now.

 

[8ball]

It definitively proves that meat eaters deserve a painful death from bowel cancer.

Unless there's a massive twist at the end...

 

[8ball]

Whoah!! Polyp-zapping-fuck!!!

 

[fredfelt]

No, of course not. Do I support hunting a fox for the sole purpose of entertaining a few people on horseback? No. Do I support the hunting of game that will be eaten? Yes.

etc. etc.

I thought I'd dip back into this thread again after coming back from the pub.

I'm quite relaxed about fox hunting. This may be an unfamiliar POV for a veggie to have. Let me explain. In terms of unnecessary cruelty this pastime is way down the list. Up until the fox's death it has been able to be a fox. It has had a chance to live. Even in the chase it has a chance of survival - given the chance of a natural death if you like. The hunt has also given a lot of pleasure to a pack of people who have a direct connection with the death of the animal.

Compare this to an animal which has not been given the chance to feel the sun, to go outside. The only reason for it to exist has been for it to be eaten. What kind of life is this?

We have complete dominion over an animal raised for food. The quality of its life is completely under our control. There's no excuse for enforcing a miserable existence on the animals in our care. It is in our power to give animals raised for food a good life. For me it's far more important that an animal is able to know what it is to be an animal in it's life over the purpose we assign to it in it's death.

For the animal that's killed for our utility its irrelevant if we eat it or if we rub its blood on our face. Surely how it lives its life is more pertinent than what happens after its death?

In short it matters more how an animal is able to live its life over that of what we assign it's purpose to.

 

[Frances Lengel]

I thought I'd dip back into this thread again after coming back from the pub.

I'm quite relaxed about fox hunting. This may be an unfamiliar POV for a veggie to have. Let me explain. In terms of unnecessary cruelty this pastime is way down the list. Up until the fox's death it has been able to be a fox. It has had a chance to live. Even in the chase it has a chance of survival - given the chance of a natural death if you like. The hunt has also given a lot of pleasure to a pack of people who have a direct connection with the death of the animal.

I feel that way about not just foxhunting but bullfighting as well. And those daft traditions in spain where they push a goat of a church steeple on saints days. That must be a right laugh.

 

[Chick Webb]

I didn't watch the whole thing (I had a shower halfway through and I was knitting for the start and end of the show) but the presenter seemed to be taking a pretty lackadaisical attitude to his health. "Yeah, we all know it's bad for us, but we like it and anyway, it's not that bad". And the conclusion he came to was entirely predictable as well. Eat less red and especially processed meat. Didn't Horizon used to be an interesting and informative show, or am I having false memories of how it was years ago? Lately any time I've seen it it's been simply "investigating" things everyone already knows. Then again, I went for my shower, so maybe I missed the groundbreaking bits.

I think he overstated the unique health and nutrition benefits of meat quite a bit as well, in the parts I saw.

 

[gentlegreen]

Comparing tofu with minced beef weight for weight was surely not a realistic comparison ?
The only thing I worry about is B12 - though I hardly ever took a supplement all the 20 years I was 100 percent vegan, and my diet since then has hardly been any better in that regard.

I've learned recently to see fish as appetising food, but I couldn't watch most of that programme.

 

[Roadkill]

I've learned recently to see fish as appetising food, but I couldn't watch most of that programme.

FWIW I really cannot see any case at all for eating fish but not meat. If you have an ethical problem with eating living creatures then there's no reason why that should not apply as much to fish as to meat, especially since some methods of catching fish, trawling especially, are not exactly designed to give the fish a painless end. Meanwhile, fish farming (which is only practical for some species) has a lot of the same welfare issues as intensive farming on land as well as serious environmental implications, whilst a lot of wild species are being seriously overfished. In fact, IMO you can make a good case for saying that eating fish is ethically less defensible than eating meat, factory-farmed meat and its by-products excepted.

 

[Citizen66]

I really wouldn't bother. I think this is a 'vegetarians are better than meat eaters' thread.

They also tend to have weaker immune systems and are more prone to illness. You don't get omega oils from lettuce.

 

[ddraig]

They also tend to have weaker immune systems and are more prone to illness. You don't get omega oils from lettuce.

pardon? massive generalisation there

 

[cesare]

They also tend to have weaker immune systems and are more prone to illness. You don't get omega oils from lettuce.

You do from flaxseed oil and other nuts and seeds as well as fresh sources such as leafy greens and mangos though

 

[Citizen66]

pardon? massive generalisation there

Perhaps not all. However, My BIL had to concede and start eating fish and chicken recently because of deficiencies caused with his diet. My OH's sister has a permanent cold and she doesn't eat meat. I used to be veggie too btw.

 

[Mr Retro]

are you reading what you're writing here? what you're saying is that the truth is ridiculous! we should pretend that meat eaters eat less animals than they do because meat eaters don't think that some of the animals they eat are animals?

Do you equate the death of a mussel with the death of say, a cow? Because that's what you are saying. And if you think that doesn't dilute your argument you can never win it.

 

[Citizen66]

You do from flaxseed oil and other nuts and seeds as well as fresh sources such as leafy greens and mangos though

And what about Iron?

 

[cesare]

Perhaps not all. However, My BIL had to concede and start eating fish and chicken recently because of deficiencies caused with his diet. My OH's sister has a permanent cold and she doesn't eat meat. I used to be veggie too btw.

You can be vegetarian or vegan and have an unbalanced diet though It's not necessarily that you *can't* obtain the vitamins and minerals that you need, but that you *don't*. This applies to meat eaters too.

 

[DrRingDing]

And what about Iron?

I really think you need to do your homework before spouting off like a plonker in denial about arse cancer.

 

[Citizen66]

You can be vegetarian or vegan and have an unbalanced diet though It's not necessarily that you *can't* obtain the vitamins and minerals that you need, but that you *don't*. This applies to meat eaters too.

But it's *harder* to do on vegetables alone. You can sit there all day naming the nuts veg that contain iron and essential oils etc but actually going out and sourcing all that stuff and making interesting meals out of them and having the time to mess about with all the ingredients is altogether a different task. Not to mention expensive.

 

[cesare]

And what about Iron?

Lentils, soybeans etc. And spinach. Plus vit c rich foods to maximise absorption. Iron's a myth, if you're going to home in on possible deficiencies you should stick to B12

 

[Citizen66]

I really think you need to do your homework before spouting off like a plonker in denial about arse cancer.

A bowl of asparagus and nuts with spinach for tea then. Sounds fucking lush.

 

[cesare]

But it's *harder* to do on vegetables alone. You can sit there all day naming the nuts veg that contain iron and essential oils etc but actually going out and sourcing all that stuff and making interesting meals out of them and having the time to mess about with all the ingredients is altogether a different task. Not to mention expensive.

Nuts are more expensive than meat, yes. But pulses, no. I agree that eating well is expensive though.