Horizon: Should I eat Meat?

[ddraig]

Absolutely.

Most people exploit animals in one way or another, be that for transport, clothing, food, medical or cosmetic experimentation, or for company/interest. Beyond that it's just a question of degree.

nice try sunshine!
Fuck off with the hypocrisy hunting.
There is a world of difference between the things you've tried to relate

 

[ddraig]

Of course it is with reference to the way he's comfortable living his own life. Whose say so is it otherwise, yours?

Of course not
Why don't you eat dog or cat spy?

 

[Spymaster]

We've done this slow cunt

Not in any coherent way. But that's probably because it was you who responded!

 

[Spymaster]

Of course not
Why don't you eat dog or cat spy?

I have eaten dog, and I'd give cat a go if it were readily available.

 

[ddraig]

Why isn't it readily available?

 

[ddraig]

But it doesn't help the vegetarian argument to say that somebody who eats a couple of dozen mussels is responsible for the deaths of 24 animals. It dilutes the argument and makes it weak and makes the person claiming it look ridiculous.

I see also ddraig (who must have serious time on his hands) has lumped what I said in with the other quotes apparently showing I'm overly for meat eating. Which isn't the case. Arguing like that is senseless. It makes no point.

Have you not seen the multi quote option? Took 2 mins, just a few clicks really

 

[Dr_Herbz]

Why isn't it readily available?

Because most cat owners would probably object to their kitty ending up in a curry.

((((dderail)))))

 

[Spymaster]

Why isn't it readily available?

Broadly speaking, in the west we don't regularly eat carnivores, but more specifically because of illogically sentimental attitudes to animals that are also kept as pets.

 

[ddraig]

Broadly speaking, in the west we don't regularly eat carnivores, but more specifically because of illogically sentimental attitudes to animals that are also kept as pets.

Who is this "we in the west" you speak of?

 

[Spymaster]

Who is this "we in the west" you speak of?

"We" is "us meat eaters", but you knew that didn't you, slow cunt.

 

[Cid]

Personally I base my dietary habits on a combination of encephalization quotient, problem solving ability, availability of controlled slaughter methods and predictability of impact on wider ecosystems.

 

[Dr_Herbz]

Jeff Robinson makes a lot of sense. I reckon there would be a lot more vegetarians if the likes of ddraig didn't put himself forward as a self-appointed spokesperson for them.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Broadly speaking, in the west we don't regularly eat carnivores, but more specifically because of illogically sentimental attitudes to animals that are also kept as pets.

None of our positions is logical. Logic does not produce morality. Emotion does, and emotion is informed by many things.

 

[fredfelt]

So shellfish is an animal now? Quoting this bullshit does nobody any good in a debate like this.

Like I said. If you are interested look it up yourself.

I also did not quote, or claim to quote anything from that link I provided.

 

[ddraig]

Jeff Robinson makes a lot of sense. I reckon there would be a lot more vegetarians if the likes of ddraig didn't put himself forward as a self-appointed spokesperson for them.

I don't and you can fuck off with your homer Bacon crap

 

[Spymaster]

Jeff Robinson makes a lot of sense. I reckon there would be a lot more vegetarians if the likes of ddraig didn't put himself forward as a self-appointed spokesperson for them.

Like any group of folk there's a broad range of veggies.

You've got the thoughtful types like JR at one end, the benighted, spittle-flecked, peanuts like Draig at the other, and everything in between.

C'est la vie!

 

[xenon]

I think if you stood outside McDonalds with a "pretty cow" and educated the little nippers about where their happy meal starts from then they might not be so keen.

You say that but at school we went to visit Godstone farm. Saw cows, pigs etc. Allbeit I went to McDonalds about twice before age 16, I still ate meat. My sister was a vedgeterian for years though. Has gone back to eating some meat for health reasons.

I'll try and buy from the local butcher. Mainly because I hate going into the local supermarket, it makes me want to go postal. And the stuff from the butcher is better quality.

I don't eat meat necessarily every day. Certainly not for every meal.

Jeff Robinson The reason why vegetarians tend towards being mealy mouthed about it is because when you say, actually, i think it's wrong to cause suffering to animals simply for our own pleasure and i think that people who do so are lacking some sort of basic morality, like psychopaths or Tories...

well, that causes offence, doesn't it. meat eaters are generally very pleased with being meat eaters and think they;'re really big and clever every time they fire up a barbeque. and most of us have friends who are meat eaters. so you learn not to bother banging on about it, cos the meat eaters get all offended or they start getting angry with you or throwing meat at you. if you cut off all ties with people who you like apart from the fact that they're sadistic towards animals you end up in those weird vegan only cults and that's even more unhealthy than putting up with your mates sick eating habits

so in the end you keep schtum about it, except on the internet, of course, which is made for arguments. and don't get me started on when someone you don't know finds out you don't eat meat. fucking hell, you might as well admit to being a child molester or a nazi re-enactor. they take it as a challenge to try and prove that animals are meant for eating.

the three stages of meat-twat arguing at vegetarians. my apologies to those who have made these arguments already on this thread, but they're stupid and you know it.

1. human beings have always eaten meat.

response: fuck off, dickhead. that's too stupid to even argue with.

2. but what would happen to all the cows?

response: fuck off dickhead, that's too stupid even to argue with.

3. but if we weren;'t supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat.

response: fuck off dickhead, that's from the simpsons and it was used ironically to demonstrate the poor quality debating skills of homer simpson if you don't know how stupid that is, you probably shoulndn't be allowed to make your own decisions.

Yeah all meat eaters are exactly like that. You tit.

 

[Mr Retro]

Like I said. If you are interested look it up yourself.

I also did not quote, or claim to quote anything from that link I provided.

↑
You said:
"- especially in the knowledge that an average Westenor is responsible for the lives of around 200 animals a year"

Am I missing something??

 

[Frances Lengel]

these threads have been going on since before you were here and attached to spy's coat tails permanently
i've made my arguments, they will never be good enough for the chest beating meat eaters of urban

The highlighted bit's just childish. The second sentence is equally silly though - "Chest beating" What? You seem to equate eating meat with some sort of weird machismo type thing. That's not how I roll, I can assure you.

and after being somewhere last night where no food was involved and i did not mention being vegi to be questioned on it and hear their excuses and how they only eat this meat or that thing rarely etc for the 20 thousandth time after someone else mentioned it, i am just fed up with it

Why do you assume meat eaters need to make excuses? I'm quite happy to eat intensively farmed meat products etc - It's a shame the animals have to suffer and that but they're suffering for a noble cause if they're feeding me cheaply, so so be it AFAIC. I'm not making any excuses, I want meat to figure in my diet but I don't want to pay silly money for the privilege - I know what goes on in abbatoirs and such & I'm just not that bothered by it. No excuses, no hipocrisy nor any chest beating.

 

[ddraig]

good, glad to hear it
i don't want to hear their excuses and don't care, my point was that they were offered with no promting

 

[sleaterkinney]

But seeing as it's not technically necessary to eat them and they must have some pain from death then you are causing unnecessary suffering. Just that your wants come above that, pretty straightforward

Not really, the animals are unconscious for most slaughter methods.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

oh, i see. necessary suffering is ok. where necessary is definited as "something that brings me pleasure"

You seem to be equating killing something with it suffering.

If someone walked up behind me now and put a bullet into my brain I wouldn't suffer one little bit. I'd be dead in a heartbeat.

However, if someone kept me in a tight pen with no natural light and force fed me for months on end and then put a bullet in my head? You might have a point.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Well, what more do I/should I need? Let's take the example of me going off to live in the countryside - I raise a pig, keep it well fed in suitable conditions etc. When the time comes it becomes bacon. This process has harmed nobody. Unless you equate a pigs life with that of a human. And I don't.

Firstly, there are problems with trying to extrapolate principles from individual and somewhat idealised scenarios like the one you outline here whilst ignoring the reality of wider animal use within the meat industry. Its a bit like when people defend capitalism by setting up a scenario like the following 'so A wants to hire B to do some work for him. B is happy to do the work for the wage that A offers him: everyone's a winner!' In the abstract that sounds great, but it doesn't reflect the reality of the operation of the capitalist system in practice. It ignores the structural inequalities between the capitalist and the labourer and the alienating and exploitative system of wage labour that flows from that. Similarly, the rearing of animals for food and crucially for profit produces its own logic. Treating animals as profitable commodities or mere tools for our purposes generally gravitates against their welfare interests. Most pigs who are raised for meat are not treated in the way you describe, they are intensively farmed are mutilated without anaesthetic as piglets. See the following clip:



I accept that you are against these practices and want to raise animals 'humanely' for meat, but for me these practices are all on the same continuum of violence against animals for unimportant human interests (i.e. liking the taste of their flesh). For me they cannot be separated in a superficial way for that reason.

Now, having said all of that, I do think that even in your scenario you have seriously harmed the pig. The act of killing the pig is wrong because you have deprived that pig of the all the future good experiences he could have had and you've done that for an entirely frivolous reason: because you like the taste of his flesh. Furthermore by treating the pig as tool for your purposes in this way you have completely distorted the ethic of care: by raising the pig you have assumed a duty of care over him that you have betrayed by terminating his life for nothing more than your own pleasure. Because you have raised the pig that imo places you under a special duty not to interfere with his welfare interest, it doesn't give you licence to kill him for your own purposes.

(there's also the question of whether you have you separated the piglet from the sow - a practice that causes distress and fear).

 

[Jeff Robinson]

None of our positions is logical. Logic does not produce morality. Emotion does, and emotion is informed by many things.

This is premised upon a false dichotomy between 'reason' and 'emotion'. Surely you've read Damasio LBJ?

 

[ddraig]

fuckin A post Jeff! thanks

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Jeff Robinson makes a lot of sense. I reckon there would be a lot more vegetarians if the likes of ddraig didn't put himself forward as a self-appointed spokesperson for them.

Thank you for saying so. I understand ddraig's frustration and sadness at the widespread institutionalised human violence against animals and the sort of rationalisations that are used to justify it, but its important to be cool headed when debating people on this. You don't need to respect your interlocutor's views on meat to respect them as people. You're more likely to win them over when you do so.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I do think that even in your scenario you have seriously harmed the pig. The act of killing the pig is wrong because you have deprived that pig of the all the future good experiences he could have had

You're getting rather close to anthropomorphic bollocks there.

Furthermore by treating the pig as tool for your purposes in this way you have completely distorted the ethic of care: by raising the pig you have assumed a duty of care over him that you have betrayed

Again, I'm not sure I could betray a pig. IMO you're projecting human experiences onto something that, well, isn't human.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

You're getting rather close to anthropomorphic bollocks there.


Again, I'm not sure I could betray a pig. IMO you're projecting human experiences onto something that, well, isn't human.

How so? Are you denying that pigs can have good and bad experiences, feel pleasure and pain etc? And I didn't say you betrayed the pig I said you betrayed your duty of care to the pig.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

How so? Are you denying that pigs can have good and bad experiences, feel pleasure and pain etc? And I didn't say you betrayed the pig I said you betrayed your duty of care to the pig.

They can feel pain certainly. Whether what they feel is "pleasure" could be somewhat open to debate as it's a word that, to my mind anyway, has certain emotional aspects attached to it. And yes it could have a "good" experience in a spacious pen and a "bad" one trapped in a crate in a dark shed. So you avoid that.

As for the duty of care - that stops the moment I kill it. My duty would be to raise a pig free of pain and in a comfortable environment etc for it's lifetime. But its life would ultimately have the purpose of being food. I don't have a problem with that.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

They can feel pain certainly. Whether what they feel is "pleasure" could be somewhat open to debate as it's a word that, to my mind anyway, has certain emotional aspects attached to it. And yes it could have a "good" experience in a spacious pen and a "bad" one trapped in a crate in a dark shed. So you avoid that.

As for the duty of care - that stops the moment I kill it. My duty would be to raise a pig free of pain and in a comfortable environment etc for it's lifetime. But its life would ultimately have the purpose of being food. I don't have a problem with that.

It's fairly well documented that pigs can feel pleasure, Jonathan Balcombe has written a number of books on this. You also accept that they have good experiences. Therefore my assertion that you deprive your pig of future good experiences by killing him still stands. You think that your interest in eating the pig's flesh outweighs the pig's interest in all of those future good experiences. I think you're wrong here. Your interest is trivial. The pig's interest is fundamental: it's is the interest in having the possibility of any good experiences at all.