Horizon: Should I eat Meat?

[Citizen66]

Iron's a myth

In isolation maybe. But you can have a condition where a deficiency can make it more serious.

 

[cesare]

In isolation maybe. But you can have a condition where a deficiency can make it more serious.

Anaemia is common amongst meat eaters too. I haven't seen any decent source that shows anaemia prevalence in vegans and vegetarians - have you got one?

 

[Spymaster]

Firstly, there are problems with trying to extrapolate principles from individual and somewhat idealised scenarios like the one you outline here whilst ignoring the reality of wider animal use within the meat industry. Its a bit like when people defend capitalism by setting up a scenario like the following 'so A wants to hire B to do some work for him. B is happy to do the work for the wage that A offers him: everyone's a winner!' In the abstract that sounds great, but it doesn't reflect the reality of the operation of the capitalist system in practice. It ignores the structural inequalities between the capitalist and the labourer and the alienating and exploitative system of wage labour that flows from that. Similarly, the rearing of animals for food and crucially for profit produces its own logic. Treating animals as profitable commodities or mere tools for our purposes generally gravitates against their welfare interests. Most pigs who are raised for meat are not treated in the way you describe, they are intensively farmed are mutilated without anaesthetic as piglets. See the following clip:


I accept that you are against these practices and want to raise animals 'humanely' for meat, but for me these practices are all on the same continuum of violence against animals for unimportant human interests (i.e. liking the taste of their flesh). For me they cannot be separated in a superficial way for that reason.

Interesting post but there's a fundamental disconnect between this view and that of most meat eaters.

So long as they're not endangered, or peoples pets, I don't care whether animals live or die. In fact I require them to die in order for them to be eaten/worn, etc ...

My only concern is their welfare whilst they're alive. I take your point that the trade in high welfare meat exists alongside the intensive industry but disagree that the two can't be separated. The growing availability of organic/assured meat points to an increase in demand for it which has to be coming from somewhere. I'd contend that that's more and people eschewing low welfare produce. Everyone isn't going to stop eating meat. Everyone isn't going to switch to organic/high welfare, but there's a lot of time for things to change. As Editor showed yesterday hominids have been eating meat for 2.5 million years, but it's only in the last 20 or so that genuine consumer concern for the welfare of food animals has developed.

Now, having said all of that, I do think that even in your scenario you have seriously harmed the pig. The act of killing the pig is wrong because you have deprived that pig of the all the future good experiences he could have had and you've done that for an entirely frivolous reason: because you like the taste of his flesh. Furthermore by treating the pig as tool for your purposes in this way you have completely distorted the ethic of care: by raising the pig you have assumed a duty of care over him that you have betrayed by terminating his life for nothing more than your own pleasure. Because you have raised the pig that imo places you under a special duty not to interfere with his welfare interest, it doesn't give you licence to kill him for your own purposes.

Do pigs have a cognisant concept of "future"? Do they actively look forward to future good experiences? If not then it doesn't matter that they're deprived of them. If they do then once again, I see them as lesser beings to the extent that my pleasure and convenience in eating or wearing them, to me, is paramount to those future experiences.

As far as the raising of the pig in your above scenario is concerned I just don't agree at all. I am raising the pig specifically to be killed for meat. My duty of care to it exists only whilst it's alive and places me under no obligation whatsoever to maintain its welfare beyond the point necessary for its slaughter.

 

[Citizen66]

Anaemia is common amongst meat eaters too. I haven't seen any decent source that shows anaemia prevalence in vegans and vegetarians - have you got one?

Nah. Just my BIL's doctor ordering him to start eating meat and fish.

 

[cesare]

Nah. Just my BIL's doctor ordering him to start eating meat and fish.

It's the simplest solution, and requires the least thought, planning and possibly expense. I totally understand why a medic would suggest that.

 

[DrRingDing]

Nah. Just my BIL's doctor ordering him to start eating meat and fish.

Sounds like a shit GP

 

[ddraig]

ffs citizen
as cesare says, you can be an unhealthy vegan living on chips and sandwiches
you'll agree that there are a lot of unhealthy meat eaters?

i've said it before and i'll say it again, my dad is/was a fat vegan, because he ate fried stuff and doesn't do much excercise
thankfully that is changing now

 

[mr steev]

Nah. Just my BIL's doctor ordering him to start eating meat and fish.

The doc is wrong I'm afraid. There is no difference in the risk of anemia in vegetarians, vegans or meat eaters. Your
gender is far more of a factor. It is very rare for male vegetarians to become anemic.

A blood test my daughter had a while ago showed that she was slightly anemic. I told my doctor that I thought we ate pretty healthily and that I would be surprised that it was her diet. He agreed. Told me that veggies were of no more risk and there could be many other reasons for it (fighting infection, growth spurt, or just that she naturally has a low iron marker.)

 

[cesare]

I'm not a vegetarian or vegan myself, Citizen66 but that's due to laziness.

 

[Citizen66]

ffs citizen
as cesare says, you can be an unhealthy vegan living on chips and sandwiches
you'll agree that there are a lot of unhealthy meat eaters?

i've said it before and i'll say it again, my dad is a fat vegan, because he eats fried stuff and doesn't do much excercise
thankfully that is changing now

I try to eat healthily. Mainly chicken or mackerel salads through the week (that contain mixed nuts! ). A fillet steak as an occasional treat. Of course booze undoes all the good effort.

 

[Citizen66]

I'm not a vegetarian or vegan myself, Citizen66 but that's due to laziness.

I used to be veggie. My diet was terrible (laziness too!)

 

[ddraig]

will you admit that vegetarians and vegans can have perfectly healthy diets then (tho they take effort obviously)

 

[ddraig]

I used to be veggie. My diet was terrible (laziness too!)

so it was you not the diet then

 

[Citizen66]

so it was you not the diet then

What was me?

 

[ddraig]

being lazy

 

[Spymaster]

... we should pretend that meat eaters eat less animals than they do because meat eaters don't think that some of the animals they eat are animals?

Where's the line drawn though? Is an elephant more worthy of life than a mouse or a sardine?

 

[Citizen66]

will you admit that vegetarians and vegans can have perfectly healthy diets then (tho they take effort obviously)

Is this to me? I will admit that but also that meat in moderation forms part of a healthy diet too.

 

[cesare]

I used to be veggie. My diet was terrible (laziness too!)

Aye, other half was a vegan for a few years too but isn't now. We eat a lot of vegan/veggie meals so it isn't a taste issue. I just have to accept that I'm lazy. I also don't live near a decent fruit and veg market which makes a difference.

 

[Citizen66]

being lazy

Being lazy was down to me yes. Not sure what that has to do with what we've been discussing.

 

[ddraig]

Being lazy was down to me yes. Not sure what that has to do with what we've been discussing.

it has everything to do with your initial generalisation

 

[ddraig]

Where's the line drawn though? Is an elephant more worthy of life than a mouse or a sardine?

this is it. we all draw our lines in different places.
to some a life is a life and that's it
to most there are lives that are more important than others which gives us the pet issue

e2a - can tell what's coming!

 

[ddraig]

Is this to me? I will admit that but also that meat in moderation forms part of a healthy diet too.

so you healthier than me because you eat meat? sure now?

 

[Citizen66]

it has everything to do with your initial generalisation

I stopped being veggie because I made a mistake at a party, got tired of the fact that eating something by accident constituted a mistake, so ate a bacon sarnie the next day.

What I was arguing above relates to people I know who are veggie who have either stopped or always seem to be ill. But yes I concede that it might not just be from being veggie. But the faff of vegetarianism can't help.

 

[Citizen66]

so you healthier than me because you eat meat? sure now?

Nice strawman.

 

[Spymaster]

Not at all, the combination of textures and flavours available to a creative vegan chef are for all intents and purposes unlimited. Its just that people aren't aware of it!

When a vegan chef creates a dish that tastes like steak, I'll convert!

 

[ddraig]

Nice strawman.

how is it a strawman?

 

[Citizen66]

how is it a strawman?

Because I didn't mention once being healthier than you. I said meat as part of a balanced diet is healthy.

 

[ddraig]

ok. as is a vegi/vegan diet done right, right?
i'm guilty of being lax with my diet sometimes, can happen to anyone on any diet

 

[gentlegreen]

FWIW I really cannot see any case at all for eating fish but not meat. If you have an ethical problem with eating living creatures then there's no reason why that should not apply as much to fish as to meat, especially since some methods of catching fish, trawling especially, are not exactly designed to give the fish a painless end. Meanwhile, fish farming (which is only practical for some species) has a lot of the same welfare issues as intensive farming on land as well as serious environmental implications, whilst a lot of wild species are being seriously overfished. In fact, IMO you can make a good case for saying that eating fish is ethically less defensible than eating meat, factory-farmed meat and its by-products excepted.

No. The meat simply looked like human body parts.

A necessary ethical step for me was taking up fishing again - only a token gesture I know, but with a mind to catching all the fish I eat in retirement.

 

[Citizen66]

ok. as is a vegi/vegan diet done right, right?

Yes, I don't dispute that. I just think it's a major faff to actually attain and the veggies who argue it struggle to do so themselves.