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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

No you haven't

The site of the UN headquarters has extraterritoriality status.[130] This affects some law enforcement where UN rules override the laws of New York City, but it does not give immunity to those who commit crimes there. In addition, the United Nations headquarters remains under the jurisdiction and laws of the United States, although a few members of the UN staff have diplomatic immunity and so cannot be prosecuted by local courts unless the immunity is waived by the Secretary-General. In 2005, Secretary-General Kofi Annan waived the immunity of Benon Sevan, Aleksandr Yakovlev, and Vladimir Kuznetsov in relation to the Oil-for-Food Programme,[131] and all were charged in the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York. Benon Sevan later fled the United States to Cyprus, while Aleksandr Yakovlev and Vladimir Kuznetsov decided to stand trial.[132]

United Nations Security officers are generally responsible for security within the UN Headquarters. They are equipped with weapons and handcuffs and are sometimes mistaken for New York City Police Department (NYPD) officers due to the agencies' similar uniforms.[133] The NYPD's 17th Precinct patrols the area around and near the complex, but may only formally enter the actual UN headquarters at the request of the Secretary-General.[134]

However it is of course surrounded entirely by the city of New York so it's impossible to get in or out without transiting via the US, when Yasser Arafat was invited to speak before the General Assembly it had to meet in Switzerland since he was not allowed to enter the US. There is no way that the UN is going to provoke the kind of confrontation with the US that arresting Netanyahu on US soil would do.
They wouldn't have to arrest him but could they refuse him entry (maybe on a technicality?) I mean I'm sure any other random criminal suspect wouldn't be granted an audience at the UN? They could say something about how he hasn't provided an updated security clearance or something like that?
 
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They wouldn't have to arrest him but could they refuse him entry (maybe on a technicality?) I mean I'm sure any other random criminal suspect wouldn't be granted an audience at the UN? They could say something about how he hasn't provided an updated security clearance or something like that?
He's the Head of Government of a UN member state, even if they were minded to it would be diplomatically unacceptable to deny him access. The USA even let the bloke below fly into JFK and give a speech, despite the fact that the real JFK had tried to murder him

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As to the issue of criminality, there are plenty of other leaders who preside over torture and murder, you'd be left with San Marino and maybe Cape Verde if they banned them all.
 
He's the Head of Government of a UN member state, even if they were minded to it would be diplomatically unacceptable to deny him access. The USA even let the bloke below fly into JFK and give a speech, despite the fact that the real JFK had tried to murder him

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As to the issue of criminality, there are plenty of other leaders who preside over torture and murder, you'd be left with San Marino and maybe Cape Verde if they banned them all.
Sure but only a minority of world leaders have actual criminal proceedings going on though and in Bibi's case it includes a case pending in Israel itself.
 
There is a difference between a "country" and a "state". The state called Rhodesia no longer exists, and was replaced by a state called Zimbabwe.
Yeah, I just don't think that saying a state should be dismantled is helpful terminology though when it's what Netanyahu etc have been claiming will happen with Israel pretty much as long as I can remember. They always claim that things like BDS are aimed at 'delegitimising' Israel with the aim to get rid of it - like, to get rid of Israelis. In the case of the Israelis I know they have lived in the UK for a long time (one has lived here since she was a kid) and I think would agree something pretty fundamental has to change there, whether or not it would count as 'dismantling' it I don't know, they probably wouldn't describe it in those terms though.
 
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No you haven't

The site of the UN headquarters has extraterritoriality status.[130] This affects some law enforcement where UN rules override the laws of New York City, but it does not give immunity to those who commit crimes there. In addition, the United Nations headquarters remains under the jurisdiction and laws of the United States, although a few members of the UN staff have diplomatic immunity and so cannot be prosecuted by local courts unless the immunity is waived by the Secretary-General. In 2005, Secretary-General Kofi Annan waived the immunity of Benon Sevan, Aleksandr Yakovlev, and Vladimir Kuznetsov in relation to the Oil-for-Food Programme,[131] and all were charged in the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York. Benon Sevan later fled the United States to Cyprus, while Aleksandr Yakovlev and Vladimir Kuznetsov decided to stand trial.[132]

United Nations Security officers are generally responsible for security within the UN Headquarters. They are equipped with weapons and handcuffs and are sometimes mistaken for New York City Police Department (NYPD) officers due to the agencies' similar uniforms.[133] The NYPD's 17th Precinct patrols the area around and near the complex, but may only formally enter the actual UN headquarters at the request of the Secretary-General.[134]

However it is of course surrounded entirely by the city of New York so it's impossible to get in or out without transiting via the US, when Yasser Arafat was invited to speak before the General Assembly it had to meet in Switzerland since he was not allowed to enter the US. There is no way that the UN is going to provoke the kind of confrontation with the US that arresting Netanyahu on US soil would do.
I have a memory of seeing a photograph of Yasser Arafat addressing the UN General Assembly in New York. I checked, and found that my memory had not played me false. Arafat addressed the UN General Assembly in 1974. That would be when he made his famous "gun in one hand, olive branch in the other" statement, which was copied by Gerry Adams in the 1980s, in the form "gun in one hand, ballot box in the other" [or perhaps it was the other way round].
 
Just been going through some of recent posts on this thread..

Repeating arguments put on main Gaza thread I've already posted up about

Which some posters who absented themselves from that thread probably haven't seen.

So it's back to whataboutery and telling posters they are doing performative bollocks.

There's been a lot of work by Jewish Israeli historians and other writers I've been reading over past months and posted up about that don't think it's performative bollocks to change state to non Zionist state.

I would have thought the recent actions of state of Israel would have made people realise what Zionism is about.

It certainly has for me. As when this started I didn't know much about it.

Not sure if I have time to repeat my posts on this thread about the mainly Palestinian and Israeli stuff on Zionism and Israel I've read.

For me being in UK what I want is for my country to stop all arms to Israel.

End the agreement the Tories made with Israel over supporting it. The so called roadmap

Start to work up other boycotts and disinvestment to help further the ICJ ruling on occupied territories which UN general assembly support.

If that's performative bollocks so be it.

As littlebabyjesus said changing Israel to one state where all are equal isn't that out of line with what happened in SA.

I fail to see how the moderate liberal position of one state where all are equal before the law is performative bollocks.

I would have thought that defending so called Western values means at its basis a democratic state.

Also like to point out that groups like Amnesty international now say Israel is apartheid state. Saying this on a message board like this really isn't that extreme or out to lunch.
 
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And btw I there is a difference between dismantling the apartheid state developed under Zionism and any call for the destruction of Israel - which is anti Semitic
Any call for the destruction of Israel is not necessarily antisemitic, depending on what it means. It can precisely mean what you say, dismantling the apartheid state developed under Zionism. People don't always use words as accurately as they should. It is not antisemitic to argue, for example, for a one state solution, that state to be called Palestine. That does not imply the expulsion of Jewish inhabitants, but might nonetheless be considered as 'the destruction of Israel'.
 
Looked back on my old posts about the Israeli architect Eyal Weissman.

Post in thread 'Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion' Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

Id recommend his book on architecture/ planning in Israel as good way to look at how Zionism operates.

I remember from his book Hollow Architecture he said if it was two state or one state solution the Zionist apartheid state needs dismantling.

It's been built into the very architecture/ town planning of the state from the start.

And has been transferred to the West Bank.

This isn't just about settlers on west bank waving guns.

Most housing built in West Bank is for regular Israeli not hard core settlers for example.

This isn't about destruction of Israel. It's about changing the state to non Zionist one
 
On BDS. This hasn't been called by student lefties who do performative bollocks.

It was called by Palestinian civil society.

I sometimes wonder what some people expect Palestinians to do

Just accept their lot?

These kinds of expulsions of people have happened more than once and Palestinians should just grow up and move on?
 
I have a memory of seeing a photograph of Yasser Arafat addressing the UN General Assembly in New York. I checked, and found that my memory had not played me false. Arafat addressed the UN General Assembly in 1974. That would be when he made his famous "gun in one hand, olive branch in the other" statement, which was copied by Gerry Adams in the 1980s, in the form "gun in one hand, ballot box in the other" [or perhaps it was the other way round].
Gerry Adams didn't say the armalite ballot box bit. It was Danny Morrison
 
Another thing when a discussion starts on the rights and wrongs of saying dismantling of state of Israel what happens in these kinds of discussions is Palestinians disappear.

After all from 48 onwards its them who have had their lives dismantled. Up to the present day in West Bank.
 
Gramsci I'm not arguing against BDS, just about people on a message board going on about 'dismantling israel' as I don't really think that helps anyone. I basically agree with you

Going to have to disagree on this

It's the language that Amnesty International use for example.

Amnesty is calling for Israel to end the international wrong, and crime, of apartheid, by dismantling measures of fragmentation, segregation, discrimination, and deprivation, currently in place against the Palestinian population.

And importantly Amnesty report says this includes all land Israel controls - inside OPT and Israel state itself in its pre 67 borders.

 
Going to have to disagree on this

It's the language that Amnesty International use for example.



And importantly Amnesty report says this includes all land Israel controls - inside OPT and Israel state itself in its pre 67 borders.

No disagreement with what Amnesty have said, but that wasn't really my point. It was more to do with the language used, which is inevitably going to trigger some people especially in Israel where there is a huge amount of paranoia etc as it is, rather than me disagreeing with the concept. Never mind - we basically agree so not sure why you are arguing it. Certain ways of phrasing things sound worse/better than others - that was all
 
No disagreement with what Amnesty have said, but that wasn't really my point. It was more to do with the language used, which is inevitably going to trigger some people especially in Israel where there is a huge amount of paranoia etc as it is, rather than me disagreeing with the concept. Never mind - we basically agree so not sure why you are arguing it. Certain ways of phrasing things sound worse/better than others - that was all

Amnesty International and HRW for years did not want to use this language. Erakat points out that HRW were trying to persuade Palestinian groups not to push to describe Israel state in this way for years.

It got to the point where this was no longer tenable.

Even with that Erakat points out that Amnesty International do not go into Zionism as such

I've been reading Noura Erakat on this. Good explanation of the history of this. Think she is a bit harsh on liberal organisations and liberal minded people in her article.


What I get from her article is that in case of Palestine / Israel there never has been a good time to use certain language.

It is going to upset people in Israel and sections of Jewish people in other countries. However its described.

Non mainstream Jewish group like the one who published this aren't necessarily majority thinking.

So its imo got to point just say it as it is. Using language that accurately describes the situation.

Erakats more radical look. Which is intellectually coherent is that mainstream human rights group shy away from Zionism as an ideology underpinning this apartheid system.

In her eyes so called liberals line is that Israel state gradually went in this direction under right wing governments. It crossed a line that led to human rights organisation labelling it now Apartheid state . That with a bit of tinkering it was reformable. It is roughly the line its Netanyahu and these messianic settlers. Get them out and everything can be solved. Israel is a democracy and its possible to reform it and make it live up to be a full democracy. Which is valid position imo. Erakat is less supportive of that.

Erakat building on earlier Palestinian intellectuals argues that Zionism itself is where the apartheid system started. From Nakba onwards. So Zionist state needs to be dismantled. Which isn't saying that present Jewish population should leave. What she is saying is that the analysis and work done ( reluctantly) by HRW and Amnesty International is a start but doesn't go far enough.
 
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I'm reminded of reading Tony Judt the British Jewish historian on Israel.

As with a lot of British Jewish people of his generation he visited Kibbutz as a teenager.

When the 67 war started he volunteered to help.

So went and saw a different side to Israel to the Kibbutz visits he had done. The Israeli Jews on frontline of the war he found had quite racist attitudes to Arabs. Which was a bit of a shock to him.

This started him on re evaluating his support of Zionism.
 

Watching the news and this came up.

So Biden and Blinken were made aware of Israel not letting aid in. This should have triggered halting of weapons supplies. But didn't


Separately, the head of the State Department’s Bureau of Population, Refugees and Migration had also determined that Israel was blocking humanitarian aid and that the Foreign Assistance Act should be triggered to freeze almost $830 million in taxpayer dollars earmarked for weapons and bombs to Israel, according to emails obtained by ProPublica.

So Biden ignored what his officials reported.

In some ways no surprise. But to see it in black and white detailing what happened ( allegedly) as looks like the journalists have got info but they cannot say who it came from
 

Watching the news and this came up.

So Biden and Blinken were made aware of Israel not letting aid in. This should have triggered halting of weapons supplies. But didn't




So Biden ignored what his officials reported.

In some ways no surprise. But to see it in black and white detailing what happened ( allegedly) as looks like the journalists have got info but they cannot say who it came from
No surprise at all...
 
Just watching Al Jazeera

Something that has just become a teeny bit more fiddly for me now they've disappeared from 235 on Freeview. (No I don't have freeplay and don't even know what it is).

They shifted to 251 but it's a streaming service and on my TV it's like going back to the late 90s and buffering.

So now I have to watch it on You Tube.
 
Something that has just become a teeny bit more fiddly for me now they've disappeared from 235 on Freeview. (No I don't have freeplay and don't even know what it is).

They shifted to 251 but it's a streaming service and on my TV it's like going back to the late 90s and buffering.

So now I have to watch it on You Tube.

I found easiest place to watch Al Jazeera is their YouTube channel
 


Ussama Makdisi book Age of Coexistence

The Ecumenical frame and the making of the Arab World.

At end of his lecture and questions he talks of the importance of history. What has happened to Palestinians isn't that complicated. What is neglected is the history and the context.

His book was written before recent events.

In his books the co existence is that of Jews/ Christians and Muslims in the late Ottoman Empire.

In the north of the Empire the coexistence broke down. Serbia / Greece and Bulgaria.

In the Arab areas the Ottoman empire tried to modernise in 19c. With a lot of work done on coexistence. A modernisation of the old co existence. With discussions of a new form of Ottoman citizenship. Called the Tanzimat.

What he says is that this history has been forgotten.

The breakup of the Empire after its defeat in WW1 led to two events. The European Imperial powers divided up the Arab part of the Empire into regions they ran. And secondly worst of all the British supported Zionism in Palestine. The Balfour declaration.

He does not say this in his lecture but the way I read it is that their could have been an alternative history. An Arab world building on the modernisation of the Tanzimat period to make an Arab world much different to now. As he says one could call oneself a Christian Arab or a Muslim Arab. But no longer an Arab Jew.

(The history book The Line in the Sand goes into the meddling by French and British Empires who bear imo a lot of responsibility for shaping the middle east which helped cause future conflict)

He says part of the reason he wrote this book was to counter the common western view of the Arab world and middle east as a place of violence and sectarianism.

Where as he says in mid 19c Ottoman Empire serious work was done to build a co existence. He's not saying it was all plain sailing but it dispels the myth that the middle east / Arab world is just unchanging area of backward violence.

Zionism he calls Colonial Zionism. There was a Jewish population in the Ottoman Empire. They had nothing to do with Zionism.

His view is that Zionism is an European idea. It was and is a disaster for the region. And could have only got a foothold in the Arab world by help of British Empire. He says from its earliest writers ( Herzl) they knew that that to make a state for Jews required removing the Arab population from Palestine. It never was about co existence.

At end of talk they discuss the relevance of the history to the present.

The first thing is to show that Arabs have a history of tolerance.

Secondly his book shows that it is possible to have different kind of society in Arab world. He does not think Zionism - A colonial political programme - can last for ever. Some kind of co existence needs to take its place.

He does add at end that one has to be careful when advocating co existence. Palestinians co exist in Palestine with Jews. But its an unequal relationship.

He's saying co existence on equal terms.

They talked a bit about the One State solution in relation to the history he recounts in his book.

The book looks interesting.
 
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I'm amazed that aired without the usual weaponized accusations of antisemitism from the usual sources over there post-broadcast...
 
For me being in UK what I want is for my country to stop all arms to Israel.

End the agreement the Tories made with Israel over supporting it. The so called roadmap

The wish is basically like a letter to Santa Claus at this point. The 'establishment' is fully, even fanatically, behind Israel. I would even say that support for this racist shithole is a basic criterion of membership, alongside bankers' control and other nonsense.

It will take something of a social revolution to change it. It's deeply embedded into the system.
 
The wish is basically like a letter to Santa Claus at this point. The 'establishment' is fully, even fanatically, behind Israel. I would even say that support for this racist shithole is a basic criterion of membership, alongside bankers' control and other nonsense.

It will take something of a social revolution to change it. It's deeply embedded into the system.
Bankers' control?
 
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