Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Spymaster]

It’s certainly never going to happen without people trying to understand it at a level that goes beyond “this act was monstrous, therefore the people involved are just inexplicably evil. There should be no attempt to see any of it beyond that level.”

The situation is quite probably in the worst state it's been in for the last 70 years, professor. And it's geting worse.

How has "trying to understand it" been going?

 

[Spymaster]

(And I do quite literally mean a pre-teen morality, by the way)

Did you discuss that one at the LSE too?

 

[kabbes]

The situation is quite probably in the worst state it's been in for the last 70 years, professor. And it's geting worse.

How has "trying to understand it" been going?

It hasn’t been going at all. Few are even trying to understand it. The whole situation has been dominated by a discourse of condemnation and, in particular, of pretending that it is a symmetric dispute rather than a piece of asymmetric settler-colonisation. That was the whole basis of the academic paper you so quickly dismissed many, many pages ago. You might want to give it a read after all.

 

[Pickman's model]

(And I do quite literally mean a pre-teen morality, by the way)

what pre-teen 3-7 or pre-teen 8-13?

 

[kabbes]

Did you discuss that one at the LSE too?

Ooh, you really don’t like having your arrogant put-down bluffs called, do you? Can’t cope with it at all.

You know that anybody can go to public talks at the LSE, right? Even you.

 

[Pickman's model]

Did you discuss that one at the LSE too?

lse is proud to be the first higher education institution in the country to derive all its heating from the discussions of students

 

[Orang Utan]

governments generally don't have their population's best interests at heart, do they

Nope

 

[two sheds]

Does LSE teach people how to calculate birthdays?

 

[Aladdin]

That's never going to happen unless one side wipes out the other. The takeaway should be working out something that's at least partially achievable, like how to stop them killing each other.

I saw a young Israeli interviewed today. He was preparing to be conscripted. He cried saying all the people he knows just want to live in peace with their neighbours.

This is probably how many young Israelis truly feel.
But the likes of Netanyahu are very different.

Young people need to be the voice of reason in this situation. On both sides.

 

[Pickman's model]

Does LSE teach people how to calculate birthdays?

no, it is the london school of economics and political science, not a school of arithmetic

 

[two sheds]

They should

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The situation is quite probably in the worst state it's been in for the last 70 years, professor. And it's geting worse.

How has "trying to understand it" been going?

Is it so difficult? They are living a normal life, enjoying a rave. They are doing things their government prevents Palestinians from doing. Killing them sends the message that their lives aren't normal either. They have been pulled down to the Palestinians' level. They have been marked as fair game simply for being Israelis, yes. Just as the Israeli government has done for decades wrt Palestinians. Moshe Dayan, who sometimes expressed sympathy for Palestinians and their plight as a dispossessed people, made it very clear why Israel targetted civilians in reprisals. It was to undermine their support for the armed resistance.

I think there are a couple of things worth trying to understand here. One is Hamas and its goals and ideology. The other is the ordinary Palestinians who cheer when Hamas kills Israeli civilians. They're not just murderous fanatics. It is a message of despair from a position of desperation.

None of this need involve approval of the killings. Separating out Hamas from Palestinians who support Hamas helps to focus in on the particulars that may deserve condemnation and those that do not. And there will even be many Hamas fighters who should be separated out from their leadership.

 

[Spymaster]

It hasn’t been going at all. Few are even trying to understand it.

More bilge. You could fill the British Library with tomes and papers of scholars attempting to analyze and understand the conflict. You've just read one that suits you and are fraudulently promoting it as definitive.

 

[emanymton]

The situation is quite probably in the worst state it's been in for the last 70 years, professor. And it's geting worse.

How has "trying to understand it" been going?

Urm it's been your approach that has got things to this point. You get that right?

 

[Spymaster]

Urm it's been your approach that has got things to this point. You get that right?

My approach being what?

 

[emanymton]

My approach being what?

To deny the importance (possibility?) Of understanding motivation and to simply see the other side as evil monsters.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

The battle for the narrative.

US opinion divided amid battle for narrative over Hamas attack on Israel

Groups express opposing views over root cause of the attack, alongside differences over whether Gaza is still occupied

www.theguardian.com

 

[Spymaster]

Is it so difficult? They are living a normal life, enjoying a rave. They are doing things their government prevents Palestinians from doing. Killing them sends the message that their lives aren't normal either. They have been pulled down to the Palestinians' level. They have been marked as fair game simply for being Israelis, yes.

But this is an ultimate act of depravity. When you've reached the stage where you feel killing and raping your opponents kids is your only course of action, you've lost. It's time to throw-in your hand and either capitulate, or pursue less immoral means, regardless of how futile.

Unfortunately the bad guys sometimes win.

 

[Pickman's model]

But this is an ultimate act of depravity. When you've reached the stage where you feel killing and raping your opponents kids is your only course of action, you've lost. It's time to throw-in your hand and either capitulate, or pursue less immoral means, regardless of how futile.

Unfortunately the bad guys sometimes win.

everybody knows the war is over, everybody knows the good guys lost

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I don't want to get bogged down in this as I don't think it really helps understanding, but I think your last paragraph sums up the limitations of labels. A non-state actor committing an atrocity is a terrorist. A state actor committing the same atrocity is a war criminal.

But it is all very muddy. Was the fire-bombing of Dresden a war crime? It was the deliberate slaughter of civilians after all. War studies types talk about a concept they call proportionality. But that is such a subjective judgement. There is no clean way to wage a war. And in a highly asymmetrical conflict, that counts even more so.

Both state and non state actors can commit both war crimes and terrorism. The bombing of Dresden is now widely acknowledged as a war crime and is also frequently cited as an example of 'terror bombing', at the very least a close cousin of terrorism.

 

[Pickman's model]

Both state and non state actors can commit both war crimes and terrorism. The bombing of Dresden is now widely acknowledged as a war crime and is also frequently cited as an example of 'terror bombing', at the very least a close cousin of terrorism.

the direction of murder squads by the british government in the six counties might be an example of state terrorism

 

[Duncan2]

But this is an ultimate act of depravity. When you've reached the stage where you feel killing and raping your opponents kids is your only course of action, you've lost. It's time to throw-in your hand and either capitulate, or pursue less immoral means, regardless of how futile.

Unfortunately the bad guys sometimes win.

the point you seem to fail to see is that it is no more depraved than the use of F16s to burn and bury alive entire populations in Gaza.The difference being the relative visibility of the recent actions of Hamas and the focus upon those actions of the Western Media.

 

[PTK]

Both state and non state actors can commit both war crimes and terrorism. The bombing of Dresden is now widely acknowledged as a war crime and is also frequently cited as an example of 'terror bombing', at the very least a close cousin of terrorism.

No. “Terrorism” is defined as a violent action by a non-state actor, with the aim of changing the political dispensation. It is not defined by the nature of the target. It is not a term of moral condemnation.

 

[Spymaster]

the point you seem to fail to see is that it is no more depraved than the use of F16s to burn and bury alive entire populations in Gaza.The difference being the relative visibility of the recent actions of Hamas and the focus upon those actions of the Western Media.

That's not a point lost on me, but Hamas don't have F16s and are never going to get them. Once again, nobody is attempting to justify the actions of Israel.

I say again; when you've reached the point that you think raping and killing kids is the only tactic left open to you, you've lost.

Unpalatable as it may be, playing terrorist Top Trumps with one of the most heavily armed and belligerant states on the planet is not going to go well for you or the people you purport to represent.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

No. “Terrorism” is defined as a violent action by a non-state actor, with the aim of changing the political dispensation. It is not defined by the nature of the target. It is not a term of moral condemnation.

As others have already pointed out, there's no singular agreed upon-legal, political or moral definition of terrorism, but I disagree with you that its not a term of moral condemnation. It's only ever invoked to criticise a group or their actions these days.

 

[Idris2002]

There are limits to legality as the criterion for judging acts as war crimes. At Nuremberg, the USSR tried to bring charges against the commanders of German army that besieged Leningrad. "World at War" fans will remember how bad that siege was: but there was apparently, nothing in the laws of war against that kind of siege warfare, so the USSR couldn't make its indictment stick.

As for the current unpleasantness, the more I think about it, the more I think civilian casualties in Gaza could be comparable to Rwanda '94 by the time this is over.

 

[dilute micro]

The battle for the narrative.

US opinion divided amid battle for narrative over Hamas attack on Israel

Groups express opposing views over root cause of the attack, alongside differences over whether Gaza is still occupied

www.theguardian.com

Harvard and other US institutions of the enlightened have a sketchy history when it comes to Jews. Where everyone else zigs, they zag.

The Nazi Sympathizers Who Ran American Universities

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

As others have already pointed out, there's no singular agreed upon-legal, political or moral definition of terrorism, but I disagree with you that its not a term of moral condemnation. It's only ever invoked to criticise a group or their actions these days.

Terrorism is what the other bloke does. Defence and deterrence is what we do.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Terrorism is what the other bloke does. Defence and deterrence is what we do.

When provoked, obviously.

 

[Duncan2]

Does the bombardment of the crossing into Egypt have some particular significance?