Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[crossthebreeze]

INQUEST statement on Grenfell Tower Fire (they are recommending an independant judicial public inquiry not an inquest initially)

 

[killer b]

This thread makes the point that one of the reasons the council's response is so poor is because they no longer have the resources or infrastructure for dealing with something like this - most services are stripped to the bone or hoved off to the private sector (anyone who has dealings with councils can confirm this is true).

 

[cupid_stunt]

Some people may actually want to move out of the area, they may have family or friends somewhere else in London, or across the UK, but haven't been able to move for various reasons.

I think people should be allowed to decide where they want to be housed, and that should be done where ever it is in the UK.

 

[bi0boy]

This thread makes the point that one of the reasons the council's response is so poor is because they no longer have the resources or infrastructure for dealing with something like this - most services are stripped to the bone or hoved off to the private sector (anyone who has dealings with councils can confirm this is true).

Pretty sure the Chief Executive isn't outsourced, and knows how to use a telephone and access the council's £150million+ reserve fund.

 

[Pickman's model]

Some people may actually want to move out of the area, they may have family or friends somewhere else in London, or across the UK, but haven't been able to move for various reasons.

I think people should be allowed to decide where they want to be housed, and that should be done where ever it is in the UK.

They shouldn't be made to decide tho. they should be allowed to decide to be rehoused together not forcibly dispersed now

 

[Red Cat]

This thread makes the point that one of the reasons the council's response is so poor is because they no longer have the resources or infrastructure for dealing with something like this - most services are stripped to the bone or hoved off to the private sector (anyone who has dealings with councils can confirm this is true).

I have a very strong memory of a chat with the head of my girls' school years ago now, when I criticised the school's use of a third sector org, in which he said very bluntly there is no local authority (in Brum), the local authority has been destroyed. That's the case everywhere, the infrastructure, the resources, aswell as the experience and knowledge.

 

[cupid_stunt]

They shouldn't be made to decide tho. they should be allowed to decide to be rehoused together not forcibly dispersed now

Totally agree. I just think after what they have suffered they should have a total free choice of where they want to be re-housed.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I have no words to express my horror and sorrow, it is beyond dreadful. Any other blocks with this type of cladding must be identified and sorted.

 

[stethoscope]

Some people may actually want to move out of the area, they may have family or friends somewhere else in London, or across the UK, but haven't been able to move for various reasons.

I think people should be allowed to decide where they want to be housed, and that should be done where ever it is in the UK.

Against the backdrop of aggressive social cleansing and 'displacement', this isn't very helpful. We know from whats happening in London that a majority of working class people living in social housing want to stay where their friends, families and communities are, and not be shipped around like cargo to other parts of the UK because they're considered as being no longer 'financially viable' in one of the richest capitals in the World.

 

[dessiato]

When I read the responses from the authorities I'm reminded of an old song in which the chorus is "It's the poor what gets the blame, It's the rich what gets the pleasure, Ain't it all a bloomin' shame?" I keep hearing this attitude from the various government officials. I keep hearing victim blaming either directly or indirectly. Every time I think they can't make more angry someone finds a way.

 

[crossthebreeze]

This thread makes the point that one of the reasons the council's response is so poor is because they no longer have the resources or infrastructure for dealing with something like this - most services are stripped to the bone or hoved off to the private sector (anyone who has dealings with councils can confirm this is true).

I take the point that because neoliberalism councils no longer have direct control over lots of services which they "provide". But there's a lot of rubbish in that thread. He says that local government didn't have a major incident plan - they do (I know someone involved in major incident planning for my local council) and Kensington & Chelsea Council should have had one that works. K&C council is one of the richest councils in the country and all councils have some sort of reserves.

 

[mauvais]

I have a distinct impression of seeing very old and very clearly unrated front doors on properties fairly recently elsewhere on the estate although obviously it's impossible to judge whether or not these are leaseheld properties purchased a long time ago. Earlier this week I was informed of the detail of the next major works contract we will be 'enjoying', and amongst the things I wasn't actually 'consulted' about before it was let is a new front door. As with smoke and heat alarms this is the kind of thing that gets added on when something else is being done - in our case concrete repairs. So again, enormous scope for gaps in provision where there isn't a contract to link it to.

Leaseholders have an obligation too, and the management company should be responsible for checking that they're in compliance. There's a thread about just that on here somewhere, a management company demanding the OP replace their door. Obviously there's a big difference in requirements when somewhere is either in a contained communal space or itself multiply occupied. Certainly a communally-situated front door of a flat, where the fire strategy is all about containment, should be regularly inspected (6 months I think) and kept up to code, on schedule, regardless of other works and regardless of ownership. Otherwise the whole model fails.

 

[bimble]

Against the backdrop of aggressive social cleansing and 'displacement', this isn't very helpful. We know from whats happening in London that a majority of working class people living in social housing want to stay where their friends, families and communities are, and not be shipped around like cargo to other parts of the UK because they're considered as being no longer 'financially viable' in one of the richest capitals in the World.

Yes. Heard people yesterday talking a lot about social cleansing and about the mixed messages on whether survivors will be housed locally. That area might be the starkest example of the inequality in London, few minutes walk from the broad leafy streets of perfectly manicured white Victorian mansions, the occasional boutique chocolaterie.

 

[phillm]

Victim blaming, quelle surprise

here's the cunt on foodbanks - cunt is used freely here for all sorts of abuse but I feel totally justified in using it in this instance.

Food banks are a fine and noble thing

Nicholas Paget-Brown | LinkedIn

 

[killer b]

I take the point that because neoliberalism councils no longer have direct control over lots of services which they "provide". But there's a lot of rubbish in that thread. He says that local government didn't have a major incident plan - they do (I know someone involved in major incident planning for my local council) and Kensington & Chelsea Council should have had one that works. K&C council is one of the richest councils in the country and all councils have some sort of reserves.

They were supposed to have allsorts of fire safety measures that prevent tower blocks burning to the ground too.

I'm not saying they are entirely free of responsibility: but focusing on the council when we all know this could have happened at almost any council in the country lets the biggest culprits off the hook.

 

[killer b]

I have a very strong memory of a chat with the head of my girls' school years ago now, when I criticised the school's use of a third sector org, in which he said very bluntly there is no local authority (in Brum), the local authority has been destroyed. That's the case everywhere, the infrastructure, the resources, aswell as the experience and knowledge.

It's especially fierce in education because of academisation.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Against the backdrop of aggressive social cleansing and 'displacement', this isn't very helpful. We know from whats happening in London that a majority of working class people living in social housing want to stay where their friends, families and communities are, and not be shipped around like cargo to other parts of the UK because they're considered as being no longer 'financially viable' in one of the richest capitals in the World.

Sure the majority will want to stay, but if you have a few that, let's say, have lost their loved one(s), don't have much in the way of roots locally, has family in Manchester or Birmingham, or even somewhere posh like Royal fucking Tunbridge Wells, and they fancy a new start - they should be given it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sure the majority will want to stay, but if you have a few that, let's say, have lost their loved one(s), don't have much in the way of roots locally, has family in Manchester or Birmingham, or even somewhere posh like Royal fucking Tunbridge Wells, and they fancy a new start - they should be given it.

Is there a precedent for your proposal?

 

[eoin_k]

This is pretty positive, not daily heil at all.

Alex

Aside from all the other reasons for reporting this story sensitively, it's not often that the Daily Mail faces the dilemma of whether or not to misreport events in a working-class community that lives close enough to visit their offices.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Is there a precedent for your proposal?

I doubt it, as this is a unique situation, and everything should be done to help the victims.

Surely posters don't want to force people to be re-housed in K&C, if they wish to move away to somewhere where they will feel better, and recover quicker?

 

[Pickman's model]

They were supposed to have allsorts of fire safety measures that prevent tower blocks burning to the ground too.

I'm not saying they are entirely free of responsibility: but focusing on the council when we all know this could have happened at almost any council in the country lets the biggest culprits off the hook.

Do you say this about many other landlords?

 

[Pickman's model]

I doubt it, as this is a unique situation, and everything should be done to help the victims.

Surely posters don't want to force people to be re-housed in K&C, if they wish to move away to somewhere where they will feel better, and recover quicker?

It's not unique

The victims are beyond assistance

 

[stethoscope]

I doubt it, as this is a unique situation, and everything should be done to help the victims.

Surely posters don't want to force people to be re-housed in K&C, if they wish to move away to somewhere where they will feel better, and recover quicker?

As nobody has been making that argument, no.

But you've very naive if you think that people will be rehoused out of area because of 'choice'. This stuff doesn't exist in a vacuum amongst wider political and economic machinations against social housing.

 

[Barking_Mad]

On point series of tweets.

 

[bimble]

Heard so many things yesterday that might or might not be true. There was one man was shouting where were the tall ladders where was the water, saying the rescue response was woefully inadequate. The young man who was in that video clip that went everywhere on Wednesday was there, he said that some journalists car was parked whilst the fire was still blazing so that it obstructed the access to fire engines. A woman said the stairwell was full of bodies, children and adults. Huge numbers were talked of, a lot of people definitely convinced there's a conspiracy to suppress the known numbers of dead. Rumours of undercover police and EDL members trying to undermine the solidarity of the community and the protests. The longer there's no answers the rumours will spiral filling the gaps.

 

[crossthebreeze]

From BLMUK facebook:

Some residents who have been given temporary accommodation are being told they are going been kicked out/moved out soon.( in days). Please pass on HJA Housing helpline – free housing advice for #GrenfellTowerFire survivors and residents in similar properties 0808 274 9308

Shelter has a London helpline offering free legal advice – it will be open all weekend: 0344 515 1540

For anyone who is undocumented, has precarious immigration status, or was subletting and was a resident of the Grenfell (or has otherwise been affected) and can’t currently access legal support, then get in touch with MiCLU for support). They are ready to support.
miclu@islingtonlaw.org.uk
info@islingtonlaw.org.uk

Please spread this information by word of mouth too.
Legal support

 

[bimble]

On point series of tweets.

yep. From Dm reporter who trawls through the mire of comments so you don't have to.

 

[eoin_k]

I doubt it, as this is a unique situation, and everything should be done to help the victims.

Surely posters don't want to force people to be re-housed in K&C, if they wish to move away to somewhere where they will feel better, and recover quicker?

Having transferred out of a Housing Association flat, literally, around the corner from Grenfell Tower a few years ago, I can say with some certainty that this is nonsense. People don't get stuck in Kensington; they cling on. If you have a tenancy there, it isn't hard to find someone willing to swap with to move elsewhere. We did it, as did my mother in law.

A locally led campaign has raised the demand that people should have the right to be rehoused in the Borough. This tragedy should not be allowed to perpetuate the social cleansing that led to it.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I don't want to jump to conclusions yet. There are many older tower blocks in London with no sprinkler system as standard. The Barbican development for example. Which is private.

A fair amount of money was spent cladding this tower block. It's about making them more insulated. Many Council blocks have this.

The question is whether this was done properly and the right fire resistant cladding was used ( newspaper reports say possibly this was not the case).

On top of this is how the less well off feel there are two Londons. One for rich and poor. This is correct imo. But it's separate issue.

Like the Deptford Fire a whole load of issues are coming into national view.

New Cross house fire - Wikipedia

This time the Queen has been quick to visit. I'm sure that's a lesson learnt from the Deptford fire.

there isn't a requirement to update older buildings to new standards that's the thing, there's a bit of info on that in here(and requirements for alterations) it mainly provides a lot of info re the risk assessment side of things. Having a bit of experience in this(though in care homes and my own house as a childminder) the fire brigade involvement is probably a lot more minimal than people might expect. The RA is carried out by landlord or "responsible person" not necessarily(or often?) trained in fire safety and training can be just watching a video on it. There's not much in place to make sure action plans are actually implemented AFAICS so this is going to come down the level of input from either party. For example our care home has a policy that non-ambulant people should be on bottom floor, but frustratingly this is pretty much never happening in practice. My risk assessment at home was just filling in a sheet and sending it in but then it's a very simple property. I might not have bought that fire blanket I told them I bought though, no checks. And yeah as Teaboy said I don't see a crossover between their end and ours. Won't say anymore as I have no experience from a landlords point of view though, though the guidelines here look much and such the same.

Fire safety in purpose-built flats

And on FB's level of involvement:

http://www.cfoa.org.uk/19532

Sorry if I digressed I was responding to a couple of other posts way upthread in my mind too

I doubt it, as this is a unique situation, and everything should be done to help the victims.

Surely posters don't want to force people to be re-housed in K&C, if they wish to move away to somewhere where they will feel better, and recover quicker?

I guess it's a bit like this idea you can choose which hospital you want to go or even go private if you like, choice, yay! But people don't want or need that, they want the hospital near to home to be able to care for them properly. Hope that helps explain their point?


I think if someone wanted to move area they could actually just apply to the council themselves when they are ready anyway.

 

[Cid]

Heard so many things yesterday that might or might not be true. There was one man was shouting where were the tall ladders where was the water, saying the rescue response was woefully inadequate. The young man who was in that video clip that went everywhere on Wednesday was there, he said that some journalists car was parked whilst the fire was still blazing so that it obstructed the access to fire engines. A woman said the stairwell was full of bodies, children and adults. Huge numbers were talked of, a lot of people definitely convinced there's a conspiracy to suppress the known numbers of dead. Rumours of undercover police and EDL members trying to undermine the solidarity of the community and the protests. The longer there's no answers the rumours will spiral filling the gaps.

Conspiracy theories will undermine any cohesion and outward response more thoroughly than the EDL ever could.