Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[Peter Dow]

I recommend that the government or the people's representatives should hire this expert witness / investigator for their public inquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire.

Martin Edwards, Associate Director, Probyn Miers
Author of

• ‘Fire Risks From External Cladding Panels – A Perspective From The UK’, February 2016, ‘Perspective’ Journal.

Probyn Miers has a twitter with some tweets about the Grenfell Tower fire.

My take on the subject would be that it is wiser to invest in sprinklers for high rise living than in exterior insulation and cladding. Better that your flat is little bit cold and you have to turn the heating up than to be at risk of fire because cowboy contractors have turned the previously fire-proof concrete exterior of the tower into a bonfire waiting to be lit.

 

[NoXion]

I recommend that the government or the people's representatives should hire this expert witness / investigator for their public inquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire.

Martin Edwards, Associate Director, Probyn Miers
Author of

• ‘Fire Risks From External Cladding Panels – A Perspective From The UK’, February 2016, ‘Perspective’ Journal.

Probyn Miers has a twitter with some tweets about the Grenfell Tower fire.

My take on the subject would be that it is wiser to invest in sprinklers for high rise living than in exterior insulation and cladding. Better that your flat is little bit cold and you have to turn the heating up than to be at risk of fire because cowboy contractors have turned the previously fire-proof concrete exterior of the tower into a bonfire waiting to be lit.

Focusing on the cladding is a mistake. While it seems highly plausible that the choice of cladding contributed to the problem, it's just one of many symptoms of a wider culture of callous indifference, penny-pinching and corner-cutting in which culpability is shared by various levels of government, private contractors and those weird public-private hybrid organisations gifted to us by neoliberalism.

 

[pogofish]

Fucking angel of death that woman

Time to bring these up to date:

 

[Peter Dow]

Focusing on the cladding is a mistake. While it seems highly plausible that the choice of cladding contributed to the problem, it's just one of many symptoms of a wider culture of callous indifference, penny-pinching and corner-cutting

It was intended to be a refurbishment, making the houses easier to keep warm in winter, cool in summer.

It seems the cowboy contractors turned the walls into all-around 5cm wide chimneys, with flammable insulation for a ready-to-burn mother of all chimney fires.

Grenfell Tower Regeneration Project SUSTAINABILITY AND ENERGY STATEMENT PLANNING APPLICATION

It costs money to stick expensive "kindling" on the outside of a tower.

A true "penny pincher" wouldn't have spent anything on insulation and rain-screen cladding. A real penny-pincher would have left the tower in 1970s trim.

With hindsight, doing nothing would have been safer.

But if you were going to do something, then I might suggest good fire alarms, security, evacuation aids such as emergency lighting, an additional fire-escape route and of course sprinklers would be good choices but don't take my word for it. Ask an expert.

in which culpability is shared by various levels of government, private contractors and those weird public-private hybrid organisations gifted to us by neoliberalism.

Yes they are all culpable for the way they spent the limited money that was available, on the particular refurbishment project that they approved. What money they spent was spent foolishly, recklessly and I would say criminally.

I support David Lammy MP's call for arrests on corporate manslaughter charges. What's the interesting political question is how far up the levels of government should such charges be laid?

 

[NoXion]

It was intended to be a refurbishment, making the houses easier to keep warm in winter, cool in summer.

It seems the cowboy contractors turned the walls into all-around 5cm wide chimneys, with flammable insulation for an ready-to-burn mother of all chimney fires.

Grenfell Tower Regeneration Project SUSTAINABILITY AND ENERGY STATEMENT PLANNING APPLICATION

It costs money, to stick expensive "kindling" on the outside of a tower.

A true "penny pincher" wouldn't have spent anything on insulation and rain-screen cladding. A real penny-pincher would have left the tower in 1970s trim.

With hindsight, doing nothing would have been safer.

But if you were going to do something, then I might suggest good fire alarms, security, evacuation aids such as emergency lighting, an additional fire-escape route and of course sprinklers would be good choices but don't take my word for it. Ask an expert.

You appear to be assuming that improving insulation was the primary motivating factor rather than being a variety of justifiable excuse. The fact that the tower was in view of nearby posh flats is worth considering in this case. If that means that some favoured company gets a juicy contract into the bargain, then so much the better. The pennies are pinched for us, not them.

Yes they are all culpable for the way they spent the limited money that was available, on the particular refurbishment project that they approved. What money they spent was spent foolishly, recklessly and I would say criminally.

I support David Lammy MP's call for arrests on corporate manslaughter charges. What's the interesting political question is how far up the levels of government should such charges be laid?

Straight to the top, if you ask me.

 

[Calamity1971]

I'm struggling after seeing a guy on the news saying he made noise to wake people up but then couldn't be rescued. He feels guilty that they then knew their fate. This is so fucked up. He tried to give them a chance to escape if there had have been an escape!. He's got to be fucked up for the rest of his life because the people he tried to save lost their life aware of their fate.

 

[Celyn]

O god, that's horrible for him.

 

[Calamity1971]

That's one person who is fucked up forever. How many are going to be tortured by this? I can't begin to imagine. I have no words right now that can comprehend this fucking neglect of people trying to live their lives under this austerity and cunting awful government.

 

[phillm]

They have gone peak daily mail. Panic has set in at telegraph Towers

Mustafa Almansur: Who is the organiser of the Grenfell Tower protest movement?

From grazing the main articles on the Mail today - they seem to realise that May must go - and quick - with the headline Maybot Malfunction and other equally unflattering stories.

 

[alex_]

They have gone peak daily mail. Panic has set in at telegraph Towers

Mustafa Almansur: Who is the organiser of the Grenfell Tower protest movement?

This is pretty positive, not daily heil at all.

Alex

 

[crossthebreeze]

Wanker Labour Councillor on BBC1 saying that while anger was understandable - and council/government response poor, the protests included people "from outside the community" (he's never heard of solidarity then) and the "attack" on the Town Hall prevented kids being counselled, schools being redeployed, and work done on housing people.

 

[Pickman's model]

Wanker Labour Councillor on BBC1 saying that while anger was understandable - and council/government response poor, the protests included people "from outside the community" (he's never heard of solidarity then) and the "attack" on the Town Hall prevented kids being counselled, schools being redeployed, and work done on housing people.

#theyreallinittogether

 

[flypanam]

That is Labour's role, to control the anger, control the protests, to ensure that things don't get out of control. I hope the residents don't let them.

 

[J Ed]

That is Labour's role, to control the anger, control the protests, to ensure that things don't get out of control. I hope the residents don't let them.

The protests previously planned for today have been cancelled, why?

 

[bimble]

There was a lot of talk yesterday evening about people coming in to stir up trouble and turn people against each other and how that must not happen. A woman in hijab was saying that earlier she had seen a man shouting about Jesus saying that where do they think they're going to go the dead who didn't believe in Christ they're not going to heaven etc. She was saying she wouldn't be surprised if he was there to try to start a fight turn the community against eachother. I saw another man with megaphone who was not local banging on about Allah, until the crowd turned against him and took his mike away gave it to someone else. There's a lot of paranoia maybe but also (my impression from what i heard) that people directly effected do not want this to descend into violence because that way the media and establishment will be able to turn it against the people, that what they want is solidarity and justice not violence.
there was a moment when things seemed about to kick off outside a nearby block when the protest was gathered there and the police started rushing forward - the crowd started shouting Peace Peace Peace, and things calmed down again.

 

[Pickman's model]

Don't most people opt out of being on the public register, these days?

No

 

[phillm]

There was a lot of talk yesterday evening about people coming in to stir up trouble and turn people against each other and how that must not happen. A woman in hijab was saying that earlier she had seen a man shouting about Jesus saying that where do they think they're going to go the dead who didn't believe in Christ they're not going to heaven etc. She was saying she wouldn't be surprised if he was there to try to start a fight turn the community against eachother. I saw another man with megaphone who was not local banging on about Allah, until the crowd turned against him and took his mike away gave it to someone else. There's a lot of paranoia maybe but also (my impression from what i heard) that people directly effected do not want this to descend into violence because that way the media and establishment will be able to turn it against the people, that what they want is solidarity and justice not violence.
there was a moment when things seemed about to kick off outside a nearby block when the protest was gathered there and the police started rushing forward - the crowd started shouting Peace Peace Peace, and things calmed down again.

Great to hear that - a riot will help no-one at the moment. If I lived there the last thing I would want is the place to be trashed further.

 

[teqniq]

Now apparently they are attempting to renege on an earlier commitment to house everybody made homeless locally

Corbyn calls Government response to Grenfell disaster an 'unacceptable failure'

The Government has been accused of an “unacceptable” failure by Jeremy Corbyn after a promise made just 24 hours earlier to rehouse all Grenfell fire victims near their old homes began to crumble....

 

[Pickman's model]

Now apparently they are attempting to renege on an earlier commitment to house everybody made homeless locally

Corbyn calls Government response to Grenfell disaster an 'unacceptable failure'

Moving the riot clock towards midnight

 

[Who PhD]

James O'Brien, the LBC liberal apologist, said this



Power concedes nothing jimmy

 

[Pickman's model]

There was a lot of talk yesterday evening about people coming in to stir up trouble and turn people against each other and how that must not happen. A woman in hijab was saying that earlier she had seen a man shouting about Jesus saying that where do they think they're going to go the dead who didn't believe in Christ they're not going to heaven etc. She was saying she wouldn't be surprised if he was there to try to start a fight turn the community against eachother. I saw another man with megaphone who was not local banging on about Allah, until the crowd turned against him and took his mike away gave it to someone else. There's a lot of paranoia maybe but also (my impression from what i heard) that people directly effected do not want this to descend into violence because that way the media and establishment will be able to turn it against the people, that what they want is solidarity and justice not violence.
there was a moment when things seemed about to kick off outside a nearby block when the protest was gathered there and the police started rushing forward - the crowd started shouting Peace Peace Peace, and things calmed down again.

The media and government will turn things against 'the people' anyway

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Cried my eyes out reading yesterday's paper...all the personal stories were so dreadful.
One about a young Italian couple both of whom phoned their parents from their flat as it began to fill with smoke. They knew they were going to die..smoke was coming in and they knew the fire escape was in flames...
The young woman's last words to her mum were ..."thanks for everything you did for me"... the poor parents back in Italy heard no more after that.

All of this nightmare is unbearable.

 

[Who PhD]

Victim blaming, quelle surprise

 

[stethoscope]

James O'Brien, the LBC liberal apologist, said this



Power concedes nothing jimmy

James O'Brien is such a self-important, moralising, liberal cunt, don't get why people rate him. He's no better than any of the right-wing wankers on LBC.

 

[J Ed]

James O'Brien is such a self-important, moralising, liberal cunt, don't get why people rate him. He's no better than any of the right-wing wankers on LBC.

If you're trying to push a right-wing narrative, having the likes of him as the 'left' flank for 'balance' and as a foil is a good way to do it.

 

[flypanam]

The protests previously planned for today have been cancelled, why?

i guess exactly because there is a fear of violence. My point though is that that councillors intervention is divisive, it's saying that the protest is stopping the good work that the council could do. It's ultimate message is leave this to the experts. I think the residents should trust their own instincts and heed their own counsel and not be advised down a certain route. Look I'm not looking for a row on this thread. Not the place for it.

 

[Pickman's model]

The protests previously planned for today have been cancelled, why?

Yeh. That'll calm things down. Moving the riot clock to midnight.

 

[bimble]

Someone filmed the moment where the crowd starts chanting peace to stop things boiling over with the police
Grenfell Protesters Chant 'Peace, Peace' As Scuffles Break Out - LBC

 

[J Ed]

i guess exactly because there is a fear of violence. My point though is that that councillors intervention is divisive, it's saying that the protest is stopping the good work that the council could do. It's ultimate message is leave this to the experts. I think the residents should trust their own instincts and heed their own counsel and not be advised down a certain route. Look I'm not looking for a row on this thread. Not the place for it.

Wasn't trying to have a row. I agree with you.

 

[phillm]

James O'Brien is such a self-important, moralising, liberal cunt, don't get why people rate him. He's no better than any of the right-wing wankers on LBC.

so no room for him in the developing Popular Front then !