Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion
- Thread starter JTG
- Start date
D'wards
IT'S YOUR DECISION DANIEL
Treacle Toes
Time
I saw that video earlier and decided that those evil cunts didn't deserve their racist cuntiness to be posted on this thread. 
cupid_stunt
Where's the bloody sun?
There's a separate thread about it here:
https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/britains-biggest-morons.361622/
Perhaps better to post on that one, to avoid polluting this one.
https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/britains-biggest-morons.361622/
Perhaps better to post on that one, to avoid polluting this one.
cupid_stunt
Where's the bloody sun?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
there's been quite a few of those
cupid_stunt
Where's the bloody sun?
I know, very depressing.
Lurdan
old wave
Back in June the Inquiry published initial reports from some of the experts it has commissioned.
Last Monday it published a further batch of reports. Some of these are updated final versions of reports issued back in June, as the authors have conducted further work and thought about their conclusions. A couple are new.
All of these reports are available as PDFs on the Inquiry website. Unfortunately, as with the first batch these are very large unoptimized PDF files, and a couple of the reports have been split into multiple chapters and appendices. The full set of 75 files total 2.87GB.
I've optimized the reports for myself and joined the multi-part reports together. This produced 10 files totalling 231MB. Here they are in case they are of use to anyone else.
Obviously I don't possess a magic wand and compressing the fuck out of files will affect quality to some degree. The results are perfectly readable IMO (YMMV) but tables with small print for example look noticeably worse.
Updated reports :
Luke Bisby - On the fire spread and in particular the contribution of the cladding materials. PDF here (21.2MB)
(Bisby has also produced video evidence available on the Inquiry website, including one of the various pieces of video footage taken at the time put into a timeline. Personally I found this somewhat upsetting to watch).
Jose Torero - On how the fire developed. PDF of the main report here (13.5MB). There is also an addendum to the report. PDF here (69KB).
Niamh Nic Daeid - On the cause of the fire in Flat 16. PDF here (9.49MB).
Barbara Lane - On the fire protection measures in place on the night of the fire, the extent to which they failed to control it and the extent to which they contributed to it. This is the largest of the reports at over 2100 pages (and it's grown by a third since June). I've joined the sections of the main report as one file. PDF here (74.6MB). And the appendices as a second. PDF here (70.2MB). There is also a file of corrections and addenda. PDF here (1.07MB)
New reports :
David Purser - On the toxic gases produced by fires and their effects on people exposed to them, the specific toxins likely to have been produced by the materials used in Grenfell Tower and the likely causes of death and incapacitation as a result. PDF here (6.5MB)
John Duncan Glover - On the possibility that the fire in Flat 16 was caused by faulty electrics. This report was also split into multiple sections which I have joined. PDF here (21.9MB). (The quality of the original PDF of the main report was rather poor). There is an accompanying rather technical report in multiple parts on a damage assessment carried out on materials recovered from the fire scene which I have also joined. PDF here (12.4MB).
These updated reports have been issued as some of their authors give evidence about them. So far this week Jose Torero, Luke Bisby and Barbara Lane have appeared. Lane is back on Monday. Video and transcripts of all the sessions are on the Inquiry website and the video is also on their YouTube channel.
However the best way to keep up with the Inquiry IMO is still the podcast the BBC produces every day that the Inquiry is in session.
BBC Radio - The Grenfell Tower Inquiry with Eddie Mair - Downloads - BBC site
Last Monday it published a further batch of reports. Some of these are updated final versions of reports issued back in June, as the authors have conducted further work and thought about their conclusions. A couple are new.
All of these reports are available as PDFs on the Inquiry website. Unfortunately, as with the first batch these are very large unoptimized PDF files, and a couple of the reports have been split into multiple chapters and appendices. The full set of 75 files total 2.87GB.
I've optimized the reports for myself and joined the multi-part reports together. This produced 10 files totalling 231MB. Here they are in case they are of use to anyone else.
Obviously I don't possess a magic wand and compressing the fuck out of files will affect quality to some degree. The results are perfectly readable IMO (YMMV) but tables with small print for example look noticeably worse.
Updated reports :
Luke Bisby - On the fire spread and in particular the contribution of the cladding materials. PDF here (21.2MB)
(Bisby has also produced video evidence available on the Inquiry website, including one of the various pieces of video footage taken at the time put into a timeline. Personally I found this somewhat upsetting to watch).
Jose Torero - On how the fire developed. PDF of the main report here (13.5MB). There is also an addendum to the report. PDF here (69KB).
Niamh Nic Daeid - On the cause of the fire in Flat 16. PDF here (9.49MB).
Barbara Lane - On the fire protection measures in place on the night of the fire, the extent to which they failed to control it and the extent to which they contributed to it. This is the largest of the reports at over 2100 pages (and it's grown by a third since June). I've joined the sections of the main report as one file. PDF here (74.6MB). And the appendices as a second. PDF here (70.2MB). There is also a file of corrections and addenda. PDF here (1.07MB)
New reports :
David Purser - On the toxic gases produced by fires and their effects on people exposed to them, the specific toxins likely to have been produced by the materials used in Grenfell Tower and the likely causes of death and incapacitation as a result. PDF here (6.5MB)
John Duncan Glover - On the possibility that the fire in Flat 16 was caused by faulty electrics. This report was also split into multiple sections which I have joined. PDF here (21.9MB). (The quality of the original PDF of the main report was rather poor). There is an accompanying rather technical report in multiple parts on a damage assessment carried out on materials recovered from the fire scene which I have also joined. PDF here (12.4MB).
These updated reports have been issued as some of their authors give evidence about them. So far this week Jose Torero, Luke Bisby and Barbara Lane have appeared. Lane is back on Monday. Video and transcripts of all the sessions are on the Inquiry website and the video is also on their YouTube channel.
However the best way to keep up with the Inquiry IMO is still the podcast the BBC produces every day that the Inquiry is in session.
BBC Radio - The Grenfell Tower Inquiry with Eddie Mair - Downloads - BBC site
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
good work
hash tag
Books, not bombs
Speaks for itself Luxury Kensington complex will have just five affordable homes
maomao
普費斯
That's a lie too. It will have zero affordable homes.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Wouldn't it be a shame if the whole lot burned down?
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
I thought this was a strange statement to make:
Sounds a bit like saying the California fires could have been put out with a wet blanket if they'd been caught early enough.
Grenfell cladding firm: 'fire could have been put out with simple extinguisher'
Sounds a bit like saying the California fires could have been put out with a wet blanket if they'd been caught early enough.
Grenfell cladding firm: 'fire could have been put out with simple extinguisher'
They are ramping up to blame the fire brigade whose advice did kill people But their advice would have been sound if Grenfell hadn't been wrapped in the highly inflammable cladding
I've listened to the whole podcast series that has been broadcast every day the enquiry sat, there really are valid arguments for the "suits, not the uniforms" of the LFB having got things wrong, that doesn't sit at all well with me given the chaos on that night but the arguments are valid.
The fire fighters themselves were put into an impossible situation though. Cuts by the government pretty much meant the LFB's hands were tied anyway
It's a tough thing to hear given the chaos of that night and I'm sure that the blame should lie somewhere within the tarting up of the tower to make it look nice for the posh people living outside it and Whirlpool whose statements and reports on what they "believe" happened is beyond belief.
The closing statements are well worth listening to. (I'm yet to listen to Wednesday's)
BBC Radio - The Grenfell Tower Inquiry with Eddie Mair, 105 Closing Statements: Day 1
BBC Radio - The Grenfell Tower Inquiry with Eddie Mair, 106 Closing Statements: Day 2
BBC Radio - The Grenfell Tower Inquiry with Eddie Mair, 107 Closing Statements: Day 3
Last edited:
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I don't think it's a strange statement. Just because one building component is flammable under certain conditions, doesn't mean it's unsafe. It's the whole system that has to be assessed and it's the whole system that was at fault, as they say. To mention that the core of the panels burnt 'like petrol' is meaningless. Lots of buildings use timber in the construction and timber burns 'like firewood'.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
This conspiracy theory still doing the rounds, then.
In the enquiry, yes.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
its the cladding that caused the extensive fire FB leadership were slow to change the plan but they trained for how tower blocks are meant to behave not how a towerblock wrapped in firelighters behaves because obviously, you don't expect somebody to wrap a tower block in the highly flammable cladding to save £5grand because that would be moronic and evil.
oh sorry, torys.
Fortunately, we don't have regular massive fires so the skills and drills to rapidly deploy multiple engines and coordinate multiple crews are sadly a bit rusty unfortunately the Fire brigade won't have a build-up period to rehearse and fine tune because we can't predict these disasters though typically looking back it's going to be fucking obvious
oh sorry, torys.
Fortunately, we don't have regular massive fires so the skills and drills to rapidly deploy multiple engines and coordinate multiple crews are sadly a bit rusty unfortunately the Fire brigade won't have a build-up period to rehearse and fine tune because we can't predict these disasters though typically looking back it's going to be fucking obvious
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Do you know when the building regs environment gets looked at in the enquiry? Doesn't really seem to have come out yet.
A small rant arising from that question: I know K&C councillors with double barrelled surnames are fair game, but to my mind the focus on them and the inequality within the borough (as though that is the borough's doing) has let the central government off the hook far, far too lightly so far. The inequality is appalling but it is largely a result of national policies, not local councillors (minor tax tweaks wouldn't really have changed much - odious as it was that K&C gave a rebate), and the building regs are definitely a matter of central government policy.
One of the missed opportunites of O'Hagan's shitty LRB piece was that I think he was right that left wing activists hit the wrong targets by going after the living caricatures that are K&C councillors. You can't build a political movement on asking a few posh councillors to stand down. They stand down and nothing changes.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
how long would you give k&c to make some impact on inequality in the borough, being as they've already had 53 years?
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
As I say, it's largely a matter of central government policy, as all the inequality in the UK is. Local authorities in the UK have very little power, and less with each day of cuts.
For instance, anecdotally neither the old money in the borough, nor the poorer voters in the north of the borough, nor the councillors, nor the council officials actually liked or wanted the influx of the super-rich into the borough, sending prices through the roof and leaving homes empty most of the year. There was nothing they could do about it. The central government created the environment for that to happen, and the local authority had no tools with which to stop it.
Edit: but in case it isn't clear, my point isn't to let Tory councillors off the hook, it's to say that the central government should be very much on the hook. I believe that if the finger doesn't get pointed more at central government then most of the causal factors of the grenfell fire will go unaddressed.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
53 years and they've not had the slightest impact on it, according to you.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Yes, although you wouldn't want a multi-story block of flats to be clad in extremely flammable wood either. Yes you look at the whole system but you wouldn't want any component of that system to be extremely flammable and allow fire to spread rapidly because that's where it's going to fail.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
its the cladding that caused the extensive fire FB leadership were slow to change the plan but they trained for how tower blocks are meant to behave not how a towerblock wrapped in firelighters behaves because obviously, you don't expect somebody to wrap a tower block in the highly flammable cladding to save £5grand because that would be moronic and evil.
oh sorry, torys.
Fortunately, we don't have regular massive fires so the skills and drills to rapidly deploy multiple engines and coordinate multiple crews are sadly a bit rusty unfortunately the Fire brigade won't have a build-up period to rehearse and fine tune because we can't predict these disasters though typically looking back it's going to be fucking obvious
Trumpton actually practice a lot, probably more than the other two London emergency services do (largely because they have more time to do it, and get a much clearer benefit from doing so). As you say though, to practice (or even plan) for a Grenfell-style disaster is going to be impossible to do for real and almost impossible even as a tabletop exercise (given the absurd nature of what central government, RKBC and the contractors had done - it would be like trying to plan for an airliner crash but finding out when it happens that RKBC had suddenly decided to open an airport in the middle of its most densely populated estate, because it was in Zone 2).
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