Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[ViolentPanda]

This KCTMO, how does that work? it's run by the tennants themselves but it's also a private company?

It doesn't sound like a conventional Tenant Management Organisation, but like an Arm's Length Management Organisation, which is an entirely different thing. I'm not aware of any borough-wide TMOs in existence, so I expect this is just a name that RBKC has given to an ALMO which has tenant representation on the board, and has sub-committee "boards" (think "residents' associations") on each estate.

TMOs are, effectively, private companies, but if they've been constituted properly, they're fully constitutionally accountable - in a way that a council never is - to the residents of the TMO. For example, on the one I served on, any board member could be suspended for minor transgressions of the constitution, and removed after a disciplinary procedure. Something that bothers me about the Grenfell blog is that the blogger mentions that the TMO were re-elected (a proper TMO's mandate has to be regularly renewed by ballot) by proxy votes. I don't know of ANY TMOs that allow proxy votes - most use postal votes for vulnerable and mobility-impaired residents.

 

[bi0boy]

Exactly. Took 15 minutes to spread from bottom to top. Concrete isn't meant to burn, so it's the surrounding structures that spread the fire, right? (going on the assumption it's build from concrete, what else would it be for tower blocks?)

I've heard the stairwell didn't have functional fire doors, and the refurb saw lots of wood and plastic installed. Could have spread internally that fast too.

 

[EastEnder]

I stayed over last night at my friend's on 16th floor of a block that's decades old but now all private expensive high rent flats: It's full of brand new quality fire safety stuff (heavy duty fire doors all over the place sprinklers in each flat hoses all up the stairs etc) . If that block is adhering to the rules then why the hell wasn't k & C's council doing so too.

Think that may answer the question...

 

[Teaboy]

Exactly. Took 15 minutes to spread from bottom to top. Concrete isn't meant to burn, so it's the surrounding structures that spread the fire, right?

Yup, I mean concrete will burn at high enough temperatures but to spread so quickly, something else is going on. I said a few of pages back my money is on the ventilated cavity behind the cladding acting as a combustible chimney with the fire being sucked up the building and feeding off the oxygen.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No, it doesn't sound like the residents were happy with the work being done. from the kctmo website - "KCTMO is managed by a Board of Directors comprising of eight elected tenant and leaseholder members, four appointed Councillor members and three independent appointed other members."

Who are the 3 independent board members?

fucking horrific.

In the case of the TMO I sat on, the (2) independent members were people we drafted onto the board to provide us with short-term expertise in a particular field. We had an architect for a year, a QS, and accountant etc - all people that helped the board do a better job for the residents. IF KCTMO were drafting local political worthies (it sometimes happens, especially with very large TMOs), then they should have reduced the councillor count accordingly.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

I've been fucking raging about this all day today. RAGING. It's a pointless, stupid loss of life but beyond that there are now people dead and homeless in the richest borough in the UK while gold-clad houses in the very same borough lie empty.

It's a fucking disgrace.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think they've got the dates wrong - looks to me as if the company which supplied these materials had bought out the one which went into receivership before this contract began.
ETA: actually I think I might be wrong about that.

It's an ALMO (Arms Length Management Organisation) set up by the Council which - I think uniquely - has adopted the legal form of a TMO (Tenant's Management Organisation). Actual tenant control of the organisation appears to be minimal however. I'm a little curious myself about exactly how they've structured this, but it's not a tenant run organisation in any meaningful sense.

Yep, just been speaking to someone on the board of the National Federation of TMOs, and he said much the same - "they're a plastic TMO, designed by RBKC lawyers".

 

[Ted Striker]

Just seen this:


Due to the engulfment of the inferno in Grenfell Tower, Latimer Road, W11 1TG, people have been left with no clothes, food and homes. Numbers of casualties are not confirmed.

HELP/ DROP OFF POINTS:

RUGBY PORTBELLO TRUST
221 Walmer Road,
W11 4EY

ST CLEMENT'S CHURCH
95 Sirdar Road,
W11 4EQ

TABERNACLE CHRISTIAN CENTRE
Jubilee House,
210 Latimer Road,
W10 6QY

Please share!

Got a garage full of old clothes within spitting distance of there, though can't get there until Friday

 

[mrs quoad]

An unquotable rag (DM) is currently claiming ''Nobody on the top three floors survived''.

Though the wet towels story seems to run against that.

 

[Who PhD]

they crowd people into unsafe flats, remove proper oversight, jobs for the boys shit going on probably with the choice of firms doing what work was done. And when you hear about this rhetoric of cutting red tape, removing impediments to business, optimizing fiscal potentiality or whatever. And this is what we get for it.
I'm just waiting for some scummy fucker in news world to suggest it was the fault of someone with a chip pan going who fell asleep drunk. Katie Hopkins will no doubt get her hate on in a manner such as that

Let her, if she capitalises on this it will be the end for the cunt

 

[Pickman's model]

Yup, I mean concrete will burn at high enough temperatures but to spread so quickly, something else is going on. I said a few of pages back my money is on the ventilated cavity behind the cladding acting as a combustible chimney with the fire being sucked up the building and feeding off the oxygen.

thank you for the insight you've offered, you never know how many fields urbs work in and it's been very useful reading your posts on this thread.

 

[not-bono-ever]

The subletting aspect could mean that there are many more people who are not even recorded as being in the building, possibly crowded into someones sublet flat for economy/ profit. fucks sake

 

[Brainaddict]

Yep, just been speaking to someone on the board of the National Federation of TMOs, and he said much the same - "they're a plastic TMO, designed by RBKC lawyers".

And as I say, they were warned that it would by dysfunctional as a TMO at the time they set it up.

 

[scifisam]

This is making me weep buckets. Lots of people won't have been able to get out at all. Disabled people aren't usually supposed to be placed above a certain floor level in a tower block (think it might be fourth? Or it could just be my council's policy) but obviously if you become disabled later then you have to wait for a place to move to, and K&C is selling its nicer flats off when they become empty, because the govt's Housing and Planning Bill of last year forces them to, so there's nowhere left to rehouse people.

Those who did get out have probably had to leave their pets, their photo albums, all their possessions that had sentimental value - fuck, the poor people.

I really hope they figure out quickly what caused this and stop it happening elsewhere.

Mot of the modern flats I've lived in, up to 5 stories, have only had one staircase. The one where I was caught in a fire and few years back didn't have sprinklers or a communal alarm system or even emergency lighting. And that was only a few years old at the time.

It should be mandatory for most blocks of flats to have proper fire prevention and management systems.

Up to five stories is rather different, though. Two staircases have the advantage of dividing up the residents between them and, if one becomes unusable through fire or somebody falling and a crush occurring, then there's still a way out. All of that is less crucial in a lower, smaller block. Also the chances of survival by jumping from a window are way higher.

 

[Ted Striker]

Cost cutting and skimping always hits those most who are least able to manage it. My shock and horror is moving towards anger

Not just that - the sheer incompetence and zero fucks given towards anything of importance to people in the TMO office, on anything, ever.

It used to enrage me to even try and deal with the smallest (obviously/unquestionably trivial in comparison) matter, and the whole organisation just didn't care.

 

[Pickman's model]

Up to five stories is rather different, though. Two staircases have the advantage of dividing up the residents between them and, if one becomes unusable through fire or somebody falling and a crush occurring, then there's still a way out. All of that is less crucial in a lower, smaller block. Also the chances of survival by jumping from a window are way higher.

my auld tower block, 18 floors high, has one staircase. two lifts, mind, but one staircase.

 

[gawkrodger]

me as well Geri . austerity kills, but not usually this obviously

fuckers

me too. Am quietly fuming - I think this is going to be a very common and wide reaching reaction to these events. It really taps into both an underlying modern fear of potentital dangers of tall buildings, and the sheer brutality, unfairness and hypcrisy of the current housing system, austerity and neoliberalism

Potentially cold and callous thing to say at this time, but I hope this really acts as a political spark

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well that's just the design of an old building. Unfortunately when a lot of these blocks were built post-war there was little consideration to fire or insulation etc. Obviously there are things that can be done later but additional stairwells is not one of them.

Architectural worker friend earlier today: "single stairwell high rise = chimney".

 

[Barking_Mad]

Relevant article here about dangers/possible of cladding (interesting read). Coincidentally the guy who is in partnership with this company spoke to Guardian and said this below (which seems to be partly contradicted by the fact the building went up on the outside and possibly spread back inside as it did so.

View attachment 109315

 

[ViolentPanda]

Barwell is unfit for any public office.

The chipmunk-faced little scroat!

 

[Teaboy]

Yup, I mean concrete will burn at high enough temperatures but to spread so quickly, something else is going on. I said a few of pages back my money is on the ventilated cavity behind the cladding acting as a combustible chimney with the fire being sucked up the building and feeding off the oxygen.

Just to expand upon this. There should be intumescents behind the cladding. Basically a chemical product that will swell when heated and therefore close the cavity. If it is the cladding system that has contributed to this disaster then the intumescents have either failed or were incorrectly installed or not installed at all.

Regardless of what has been happening with council and the TMO this looks like something has gone seriously wrong from a construction perspective.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Also see this link from fire safety expert. Short excerpt below.

 

[Lorca]

i know at the moment this is a relatively small point in the scheme of things, but where the hell are the 'surviving' tenants going to go in the short term? many will surely need to be re-housed nearby due to jobs, family commitments etc, but of course there's a chronic shortage of emergency housing afaik. also, many will have lost all their possessions. gonna be a bit of a nightmare for the local authority (and the tenants) to sort, surely.

 

[not-bono-ever]

I am watching this on the BBC now. if this is austerity, then heads will fucking roll for this.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Just seen this:


Due to the engulfment of the inferno in Grenfell Tower, Latimer Road, W11 1TG, people have been left with no clothes, food and homes. Numbers of casualties are not confirmed.

HELP/ DROP OFF POINTS:

RUGBY PORTBELLO TRUST
221 Walmer Road,
W11 4EY

ST CLEMENT'S CHURCH
95 Sirdar Road,
W11 4EQ

TABERNACLE CHRISTIAN CENTRE
Jubilee House,
210 Latimer Road,
W10 6QY

Please share!

I read somewhere else (i think twitter) that they are now saying to wait until there are lists of what they actually want - I don't know.

Portbello Trust and St. Clement's Church reported being at capacity by late morning (which is kinda in one sense), and the latter said they would tweet out any further items needed.

There are quite a few other places though, including a mosque and Sikh temple.

I'm keeping an eye on it as I'm heading over after work - we started asking for donations of items, but now we're just asking for cash which we'll take over and/or donate online.

Got a garage full of old clothes within spitting distance of there, though can't get there until Friday

I imagine they'll still be collecting by Friday, and it's possibly almost better for donations to be staggered. This is hundreds of people who have lost everything they own, they'll need a lot

 

[stuff_it]

Terrible news - many ambulances called very few seen leaving the scene. Recently refurbed with 'cladding'.

Grenfell Tower |

It seems that this cladding can be pretty flammable.

Fire Risks From External Cladding Panels – A Perspective From The UK « Probyn Miers

 

[Barking_Mad]

PDF of design/materials for cladding on building.

not entirely sure if these are the final choices. Anyone?

 

[cupid_stunt]

On the BBC lunchtime news, the top floors are still on fire, and bits of the building are still falling, which I assume is cladding.

A crane has turned-up, which seems to reach above that used by the fire service earlier, looks like it's pumping water in at floors around 16-18 now.

 

[scifisam]

I've been fucking raging about this all day today. RAGING. It's a pointless, stupid loss of life but beyond that there are now people dead and homeless in the richest borough in the UK while gold-clad houses in the very same borough lie empty.

It's a fucking disgrace.

Wouldn't it be nice if someone broke into those empty "homes" and housed some of these now-homeless people there?

thank you for the insight you've offered, you never know how many fields urbs work in and it's been very useful reading your posts on this thread.

Agreed.

Many years ago I lived on the 24th floor of a tower block with one staircase, too, but it was eventually knocked down as unsafe. WTF was going through the architects' minds to only have one set of stairs? A fire that spreads to that one staircase means everyone above that level dies. No safety doors can guarantee that won't happen, especially when people end up propping open fire doors because they're so bloody difficult to use.

 

[brogdale]

I am watching this on the BBC now. if this is austerity, then heads will fucking roll for this.

Such tragedy not only highlights their slashing of the state, but it also gives a context to the right's stated aims for Brexit.