Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[Yuwipi Woman]

Just woke up to this. It looks like about the worst possible of all potential fires--overcrowded, under-maintained, multi-story building. Our news is reporting 7 dead, but I can't imagine, from the look of that, it would be anywhere near that low when they get the full count.

 

[Sue]

my auld tower block, 18 floors high, has one staircase. two lifts, mind, but one staircase.

I've lived in two tower blocks and they were the same. Slightly lower though -- one was 10 floors, the other 12.

 

[phillm]

There was a lot of talk after the election about how much of Kensington is non resident empty houses owned by the rich. If there were any fucking justice they'd be used now for the displaced.

A mate who used to be very active in the RMT on LU is talking about the big changes that were made in terms of fire regs and risk assessment where it moved from inspection by fire officers to self risk assessment. You can see the incentives for minimisation and avoidance in that system, especially in a time of austerity; the fact that this and other buildings 'passed' risk assessments may be meaningless. Wonder what the report the government has sat on for years has to say about this?

I have no doubt that when we know the full facts of this utter , pointless tragedy that the tory unholy trinity of 'austerity', 'deregulation' , and 'efficiency savings' will loom large over the huge waste of life that is unfolding. And that the tories will inherit a national firestorm of rage that is only just beginning.

 

[Sprocket.]

Having worked with a couple of sprinkler installation companies over the years. The big point that is always pushed is that no-one has ever died in the UK in a fire in a property fitted with a sprinkler system.
If sprinklers were fitted just on stairwells and hallways the cost would be less than one person losing their life.
Diabolical that health and safety are never an issue until people, usually poor people die.

 

[EastEnder]

I have no clue but this from the guardian:

"Dr Jim Glocking, technical director of the Fire Protection Association (FPA), an industry body which carries out tests on fire safety issues, among other things, said a major issues was that insulation underneath cladding on the outside of tower blocks did not need to be fireproof.

Glocking said that while he did not know the situation at Grenfell Tower, the rapid spread of the blaze indicated thus could be the case.

He said the association had received increasing numbers of reports about insulation on the outside of buildings catching light.

“They can be slapping on up to 300mm deep of polystyrene on the outside of the building,” he said. “It can be very significant. I have no knowledge of what happened in this particular case.”

Laboratory tests on such cladding carried out by the FPA “found that there was scope for really large-scale fire spread under certain circumstances”, he said."
..He added:
“I think the inexcusable element here is that with cladding or insulation there are choices. There will be a perfectly good non-combustible choice that can be made, but somebody is not making those calls.”

polystyrene? In the past I've used lumps of polystyrene to light barbecues when I didn't have any fire lighters to hand......

 

[Teaboy]

polystyrene? In the past I've used lumps of polystyrene to light barbecues when I didn't have any fire lighters to hand......

EPS is used in a wide range of applications in construction, its a very good product. It is however, combustible but the risk associated with that should be mitigated.

EPS is a product of the plastics industry so I really wouldn't use it to light your bbq with, assuming you like having functioning lungs.

 

[Sprocket.]

polystyrene? In the past I've used lumps of polystyrene to light barbecues when I didn't have any fire lighters to hand......

Beware, burning polystyrene releases Carbon Monoxide and in some cases, Cyanide gas!

 

[ViolentPanda]

The link I posted before, confirming retrofitting of sprinkler systems is not required by current regulations, but can be done for around £1200 per flat, so let's say double that as this is a big block, that gives you a figure of around £300k in this case.

They recently spent £10m on this block, but don't appear to have spent £300k on a bloody sprinkler system.

Fucking ridiculous, isn't it?

 

[Idris2002]

Is it possible that cheaper, non-regulation cladding was used on the QT?

 

[Treacle Toes]

 

[EastEnder]

EPS is used in a wide range of applications in construction, its a very good product. It is however, combustible but the risk associated with that should be mitigated.

EPS is a product of the plastics industry so I really wouldn't use it to light your bbq with, assuming you like having functioning lungs.

Beware, burning polystyrene releases Carbon Monoxide and in some cases, Cyanide gas!

Yeah, no worries, this was years ago as a foolish youth...

 

[Teaboy]

Is it possible that cheaper, non-regulation cladding was used on the QT?

Unlikely but possible. That sort of thing does happen in construction though its usually with smaller harder to detect things. Given the facade is how their building is going to look architects pay very close attention and are quite prescriptive in their specifications. It is possible that the contractor has proposed a different system last minute and the architect has not done their due diligence investigating the alternative.

I do think it unlikely though.

 

[Cid]

EPS is used in a wide range of applications in construction, its a very good product. It is however, combustible but the risk associated with that should be mitigated.

EPS is a product of the plastics industry so I really wouldn't use it to light your bbq with, assuming you like having functioning lungs.

Would it really be used in this kind of situation though? PIR/PUR surely more common... Kingspan's is phenolic (I have no idea what that is), Celotex's is PIR.

Though a kind of common theme is that these are expensive products...

 

[ViolentPanda]

But to me it seems obvious that you must always have a back-up safety feature that doesn't rely on electrical or mechanical input or anything at all complex. You need stairs. Any design that relies entirely on technology is basically crossing its fingers and hoping for the best.

The fall-back system for blocks is usually a dry riser (or a stepped series of them). A dry-riser is just a substantial pipe which can have water pumped into it under very high pressure, in order to feed fire-suppression systems from an outside source. Even here, landlords fail to pressure test dry risers (supposed to happen once a year), and let them deteriorate to the point of failure. If the dry riser is maintained, and suitable fire doors are in place, you don't need to worry about how many stairwells you have (dry risers have been used for about 120 years).

 

[Cid]

Unlikely but possible. That sort of thing does happen in construction though its usually with smaller harder to detect things. Given the facade is how their building is going to look architects pay very close attention and are quite prescriptive in their specifications. It is possible that the contractor has proposed a different system last minute and the architect has not done their due diligence investigating the alternative.

I do think it unlikely though.

What about speccing the minimum possible requirements, and failing to compensate in the rest of the system? Reynobond panels seem to come in a range of fire ratings. I'm guessing the better rated ones are more expensive.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Interesting interview. Lady says fire bridge turned up only last weekend and gave her advice (backed up by management company) to stay in her flat because the fire doors would contain the fire. Clearly they didn't expect the exterior of the building catching fire.

Here

 

[Teaboy]

Ahh. Fluted concrete on the original facade that could well be it. Here's some fluted concrete in Brentford (on the right of the facade)

If they've just stuck insulation over it then that would leave a small cavity behind it for the fire to shoot up. Bloke in the video really knows his stuff.

 

[scifisam]

The fall-back system for blocks is usually a dry riser (or a stepped series of them). A dry-riser is just a substantial pipe which can have water pumped into it under very high pressure, in order to feed fire-suppression systems from an outside source. Even here, landlords fail to pressure test dry risers (supposed to happen once a year), and let them deteriorate to the point of failure. If the dry riser is maintained, and suitable fire doors are in place, you don't need to worry about how many stairwells you have (dry risers have been used for about 120 years).

Perhaps, as long as the fire doors are closed. IME they are often not.

 

[scifisam]

Ahh. Fluted concrete on the original facade that could well be it. Here's some fluted concrete in Brentford (on the right of the facade)

If they've just stuck insulation over it then that would leave a small cavity behind it for the fire to shoot up. Bloke in the video really knows his stuff.

That sounds very plausible.

 

[Teaboy]

What about speccing the minimum possible requirements, and failing to compensate in the rest of the system? Reynobond panels seem to come in a range of fire ratings. I'm guessing the better rated ones are more expensive.

Yup another possibility and using the cheapest is not uncommon in construction particularly social housing refurbishment. That being said if it was just about low cost they could have just used an insulated render system which would be much cheaper and has been used extensively.

No, I still think it is something to do with behind the cladding and now that fluted concrete has come to light I'm even more convinced and a bit worried as there's been a few blocks done like this.

ETA: The lateral spread of fire is something that remains odd. This may be where the combustibility of the insulation comes in.

 

[Cid]

Yup another possibility and using the cheapest is not uncommon in construction particularly social housing refurbishment. That being said if it was just about low cost they could have just used an insulated render system which would be much cheaper and has been used extensively.

No, I still think it is something to do with behind the cladding and now that fluted concrete has come to light I'm even more convinced and a bit worried as there's been a few blocks done like this.

Yeah that explanation does seem credible.

 

[Ranbay]

fucking why oh why did I look at the DM comments...

 

[nogojones]

Such tragedy not only highlights their slashing of the state, but it also gives a context to the right's stated aims for Brexit.

"A bonfire of red tape" is a quote I recall

 

[killer b]

fucking why oh why did I look at the DM comments...

what could they possibly be saying??

 

[Ranbay]

what could they possibly be saying??

God's punishment for the London bridge attacks.

and one about why do we send 13 million to other countries etc etc

 

[scifisam]

A positive thought just occurred to me: because it's Ramadan, the Muslim residents of the block are more likely to have been awake at the time the fire started. They're more likely to have been able to get out and warn their neighbours to get out.

 

[Who PhD]

I wish this were more impressive than it sounds, but I just rang the office of squalid tory turd Philip Davies to find out whether he'd made a statement in light of recent events, given his deliberate filibustering of the sort of bill that would have gone someway to preventing poor people from burning to death.

His secretary had no answer, but to recommend i email him where I'm sure he would be delighted to explain his carefully thought through nuanced position.

These are his contact details, all public knowledge: 01274 592 248 or 01274 582 272

These bastards must be held to account for what must be culpable negligence if not corporate manslaughter.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

A positive thought just occurred to me: because it's Ramadan, the Muslim residents of the block are more likely to have been awake at the time the fire started. They're more likely to have been able to get out and warn their neighbours to get out.

I've see a few people say that this indeed happened.

 

[skyscraper101]

 

[Mr.Bishie]

A positive thought just occurred to me: because it's Ramadan, the Muslim residents of the block are more likely to have been awake at the time the fire started. They're more likely to have been able to get out and warn their neighbours to get out.

That was being reported earlier today. Let's hope it was the case.