Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i don't think brexit proof positive that half the country are all of a sudden fascists.
ukip's immigration policy not included in tory or labour manifestos.
General election, the urban75 vote
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ukip's immigration policy not included in tory or labour manifestos.
Nor does anyone pickmans.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
not sure why you brought up brexit then, in the context of your recent posts. and trump nothing to do with europe. might as well have said 'five years ago no one would have predicted leicester would win the league'.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
zing!
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Do you genuinely not understand the point I'm making?
The rise of fascism is not related to how many members the fucking BNP has. The rise of fascist ideas is what you've got to be on the lookout for. And they are rising, mark my words.
As to the point about what relevance Brexit has to them, well that's fuckin obvious.
And if you don't think the rise in popularity of those ideas in the rest of Europe or the States has relevance here then you're very naive.
No wonder you all don't give a shit about voting if you don't feel in the slightest bit worried about far right ideas and fascism. You must live in a weird bubble if you can't see this stuff and think we're all perfectly fine, it could never happen again, let's just laugh at Trump and Le Pen.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh. i shouldn't need to point out a record of more than 25 years anti-fascism, from the days of afa through no platform and antifa up to the afn speaks to your post being based on ignorance.
i never said or indicated that the rise of fascism had any relationship to the number of members of the bnp. nice strawman there.
and the adoption of 'fascist ideas' by non-fascist parties to my mind gives the lie to them being 'fascist ideas': in the same way that the first welfare state in europe was set up by one o. bismarck, not known for his socialist views. or the way that theresa may can say 'we're doing stuff for workers': ideas are not linked to one particular ideology, they can be picked and mixed. you talked about ukip's immigration policy being (albeit in part - which part?) in tory and labour manifestos. but it's not! the ukip policy is one out one in. i'm not seeing that in the tory manifesto (immigration down to the tens of thousands, third time running) or the labour one.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
not getting the impression you have understood the subversive nature of mockery and ridicule.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it's a bold new strategy which by its unexpectedness will catch the foe on the hop.
Despite your 25 years in groups with a lot of acronyms I'm still not convinced you are right pickmans. You are saying that ideas themselves aren't fascist, or socialist, or whatever it's the groups or people that are. That sounds bollocks to me, although I'm no historian.
If the Tories, or the Lib Dems, or whoever, tomorrow started saying that the social and economic woes of this country were due to one social group- immigrants, or muslims, or Mexicans, or whoever, then I'd say that was a fascist idea no matter who said it.
Here are some other possible fascist ideas that worry me when I see them in the news:
The muddying of fact and conspiracy. Leaders like Trump just making shit up, and declaring it true. Fantasy attacks in Sweden. The numbers at his inauguration.
The assault on the media and free press.
Racism and anti immigrant views being voiced again more openly. They've always been there, but Brexit sparked them being said more loudly than ever.
The murder of Jo Cox by a fascist.
The loss of faith in Government with its checks and balances. Parliaments being seen as unaccountable except to a faceless elite. So when a charismatic man of the people comes along and offers to take them on, he's given a free ride from those checks and balances.
Extremist political views normalised. To be honest it struck me how weird it was to see Nuttal just stood there spouting his shit like my Uncle John formerly of the pretty extreme right wing in the 1980s had been given a rainbow lit podium alongside the other parties last night.
It's all very well you literally laughing off the threat of fascism, denying the rise. But doesn't the above worry you. Worry any of you non-voters enough to make you go and vote for someone, fuckin anyone, who will rein in the right wing?
If the Tories, or the Lib Dems, or whoever, tomorrow started saying that the social and economic woes of this country were due to one social group- immigrants, or muslims, or Mexicans, or whoever, then I'd say that was a fascist idea no matter who said it.
Here are some other possible fascist ideas that worry me when I see them in the news:
The muddying of fact and conspiracy. Leaders like Trump just making shit up, and declaring it true. Fantasy attacks in Sweden. The numbers at his inauguration.
The assault on the media and free press.
Racism and anti immigrant views being voiced again more openly. They've always been there, but Brexit sparked them being said more loudly than ever.
The murder of Jo Cox by a fascist.
The loss of faith in Government with its checks and balances. Parliaments being seen as unaccountable except to a faceless elite. So when a charismatic man of the people comes along and offers to take them on, he's given a free ride from those checks and balances.
Extremist political views normalised. To be honest it struck me how weird it was to see Nuttal just stood there spouting his shit like my Uncle John formerly of the pretty extreme right wing in the 1980s had been given a rainbow lit podium alongside the other parties last night.
It's all very well you literally laughing off the threat of fascism, denying the rise. But doesn't the above worry you. Worry any of you non-voters enough to make you go and vote for someone, fuckin anyone, who will rein in the right wing?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
ok. not ideas as such, but policies are not fascist or communist, as per my example about the first welfare state being bismarck's germany.
i'm sure you would. but would you be right? are immigrants 'one social group'?
which of these is a fascist idea?
what, like the killing of journalists by british and american armed forces, do you mean?
to be fair, you can hardly expect faith in government and parliament when there's a bloody great scandal about how venal and corrupt they are.
i'm sure it was. but this is what happens when your right wing go and start doing things as parties rather than on the streets.
it would worry me very much if any of this was going to lead to the rise of a fascist state. yes, some ideas which emanate from fascists or the right have become more common currency. but the rise of fascism necessitates a party or parties to put into action a fascist programme. being nasty about immigrants is not a fascist idea, as a look back to the days before fascism shows, when there was great racism towards immigrants like the irish and the jews in the nineteenth century. but you won't change any of this by simply going through parliament and passing laws and that. that's a huge diversion. you change things by opposing racists and fascists on the streets and wherever you meet them. you change things through talking to other people. you won't legislate racism away, it needs people to change other people's minds to do away with it. vote lib dem if you must. but you're voting for the party which paved the way for derek beackon's election in tower hamlets. you don't have a clue about the history of the party you support.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Sorry, you just don't know what your on about if you need it pointing out that ideas as well as policies or groups can be fascist.
For the record, I'd be much more afraid of the fascist in the suit than a skinhead.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Right. And what are these fascist ideas? I've shown you're wrong about immigration. Let's have another. The thing is that *in isolation* these ideas or policies or what have you aren't fascist. It's in combination you find what the theorists call the fascist minimum.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Another one arrived this evening. That's two in one day. And all about the SNP and independence.
That's all their leaflets say. And I'm getting them day after day.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Pity the recyclers who have to throw reams of the things in the recycling lorry
Umm, I've actually listed a load above. The bit that says, here are some other possibly fascist ideas. Then there's a list.
Are you okay?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I'm grand, Edie, you keeping well?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
And you think they're possible fascist ideas because...
Boris Johnson makes it all up, he's famous for it, he's lost two jobs because he's a lying fantasist. You saying he's a possible fascist?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Is the murder of Jo Cox by a fascist really a possible fascist idea?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Now, are you intending to come back on the points raised?
You are being unfair..... to poor old Simon Pegg.
I am actually
I think they are fascist ideas. Xenophobia, denial of facts and evidence, attacks on free speech and the press, silencing of the opposition (even through murder), public loss of faith (and subsequent control of) democratic parliament or institutions like the judiciary, normalisation of extremist political views or actions, control through fear.
Are you saying these ideas aren't fascist?
You've already said they can only be fascist if they're held by a group (probably skinheads with big boots), which is nonsense. But do you deny they are fascist in themselves?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Go back and read what I've said and come back when you've understood it.I am actually
I think they are fascist ideas. Xenophobia, denial of facts and evidence, attacks on free speech and the press, silencing of the opposition (even through murder), public loss of faith (and subsequent control of) democratic parliament or institutions like the judiciary, normalisation of extremist political views or actions, control through fear.
Are you saying these ideas aren't fascist?
You've already said they can only be fascist if they're held by a group (probably skinheads with big boots), which is nonsense. But do you deny they are fascist in themselves?
bmd
Island in the stream.
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