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Look, I think that a bunch of you are being a bit stupid and snobbish about this. Patronising me, saying I just don't understand what fascism is. That it's absurd to suggest it might be rising again.

But I just had a very quick google, and here is the UN Human Rights chief saying the same! No offence, but I'd reckon he probably knows a thing or two about fascism.

‘Rhetoric of fascism’ is rising in U.S. and Europe, says U.N. rights chief
Hi Edie. I've not really been following your discussions about fascism, but I've noticed them going past as I've scrolled through the boards in the last few days.

If you're interested, there's a number of books I can recommend, but the one I'd start with is online here.

I'm c&ping a passage that summarises the author's definition and description:

What Is Fascism?

The moment has come to give fascism a usable short handle, even though we know that it encompasses its subject no better than a snapshot encompasses a person.

Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.

To be sure, political behavior requires choices, and choices—as my critics hasten to point out—bring us back to underlying ideas. Hitler and Mussolini, scornful of the “materialism” of socialism and liberalism, insisted on the centrality of ideas to their movements. Not so, retorted many antifascists who refuse to grant them such dignity. “National Socialism’s ideology is constantly shifting,” Franz Neumann observed. “It has certain magical beliefs—leadership adoration, supremacy of the master race—but [it] is not laid down in a series of categorical and dogmatic pronouncements.”73 On this point, this book is drawn toward Neumann’s position, and I examined at some length in chapter 1 the peculiar relationship of fascism to its ideology—simultaneously proclaimed as central, yet amended or violated as expedient.74 Nevertheless, fascists knew what they wanted. One cannot banish ideas from the study of fascism, but one can situate them accurately among all the factors that influence this complex phenomenon. One can steer between two extremes: fascism consisted neither of the uncomplicated application of its program, nor of freewheeling opportunism.

I believe that the ideas that underlie fascist actions are best deduced from those actions, for some of them remain unstated and implicit in fascist public language. Many of them belong more to the realm of visceral feelings than to the realm of reasoned propositions. In chapter 2 I called them “mobilizing passions”:

• a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions;
• the primacy of the group, toward which one has duties superior to every right, whether individual or universal, and the subordination of the individual to it;
• the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external;
• dread of the group’s decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism, class conflict, and alien influences;
• the need for closer integration of a purer community, by consent if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary;
• the need for authority by natural chiefs (always male), culminating in a national chieftain who alone is capable of incarnating the group’s historical destiny;
• the superiority of the leader’s instincts over abstract and universal reason;
• the beauty of violence and the efficacy of will, when they are devoted to the group’s success;
• the right of the chosen people to dominate others without restraint from any kind of human or divine law, right being decided by the sole criterion of the group’s prowess within a Darwinian struggle.

Fascism according to this definition, as well as behavior in keeping with these feelings, is still visible today. Fascism exists at the level of Stage One within all democratic countries—not excluding the United States. “Giving up free institutions,” especially the freedoms of unpopular groups, is recurrently attractive to citizens of Western democracies, including some Americans. We know from tracing its path that fascism does not require a spectacular “march” on some capital to take root; seemingly anodyne decisions to tolerate lawless treatment of national “enemies” is enough. Something very close to classical fascism has reached Stage Two in a few deeply troubled societies. Its further progress is not inevitable, however. Further fascist advances toward power depend in part upon the severity of a crisis, but also very largely upon human choices, especially the choices of those holding economic, social, and political power. Determining the appropriate responses to fascist gains is not easy, since its cycle is not likely to repeat itself blindly. We stand a much better chance of responding wisely, however, if we understand how fascism succeeded in the past.
That is the end of the book. Sometimes it's useful to read a book "backwards" in order to have in mind the conclusion the author is working towards; it helps to assess the evidence s/he presents as you go back and read the book. Note here that Paxton talks about "stages of fascism". It's worth focussing on what he means and what those stages are. As far as what that would mean today, as opposed to historically, he outlines that in Chapter 7.

Hope you, and others, find this helpful.
 
Hi Edie. I've not really been following your discussions about fascism, but I've noticed them going past as I've scrolled through the boards in the last few days.

If you're interested, there's a number of books I can recommend, but the one I'd start with is online here.

I'm c&ping a passage that summarises the author's definition and description:

What Is Fascism?

The moment has come to give fascism a usable short handle, even though we know that it encompasses its subject no better than a snapshot encompasses a person.

Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.

To be sure, political behavior requires choices, and choices—as my critics hasten to point out—bring us back to underlying ideas. Hitler and Mussolini, scornful of the “materialism” of socialism and liberalism, insisted on the centrality of ideas to their movements. Not so, retorted many antifascists who refuse to grant them such dignity. “National Socialism’s ideology is constantly shifting,” Franz Neumann observed. “It has certain magical beliefs—leadership adoration, supremacy of the master race—but [it] is not laid down in a series of categorical and dogmatic pronouncements.”73 On this point, this book is drawn toward Neumann’s position, and I examined at some length in chapter 1 the peculiar relationship of fascism to its ideology—simultaneously proclaimed as central, yet amended or violated as expedient.74 Nevertheless, fascists knew what they wanted. One cannot banish ideas from the study of fascism, but one can situate them accurately among all the factors that influence this complex phenomenon. One can steer between two extremes: fascism consisted neither of the uncomplicated application of its program, nor of freewheeling opportunism.

I believe that the ideas that underlie fascist actions are best deduced from those actions, for some of them remain unstated and implicit in fascist public language. Many of them belong more to the realm of visceral feelings than to the realm of reasoned propositions. In chapter 2 I called them “mobilizing passions”:

• a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions;
• the primacy of the group, toward which one has duties superior to every right, whether individual or universal, and the subordination of the individual to it;
• the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external;
• dread of the group’s decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism, class conflict, and alien influences;
• the need for closer integration of a purer community, by consent if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary;
• the need for authority by natural chiefs (always male), culminating in a national chieftain who alone is capable of incarnating the group’s historical destiny;
• the superiority of the leader’s instincts over abstract and universal reason;
• the beauty of violence and the efficacy of will, when they are devoted to the group’s success;
• the right of the chosen people to dominate others without restraint from any kind of human or divine law, right being decided by the sole criterion of the group’s prowess within a Darwinian struggle.

Fascism according to this definition, as well as behavior in keeping with these feelings, is still visible today. Fascism exists at the level of Stage One within all democratic countries—not excluding the United States. “Giving up free institutions,” especially the freedoms of unpopular groups, is recurrently attractive to citizens of Western democracies, including some Americans. We know from tracing its path that fascism does not require a spectacular “march” on some capital to take root; seemingly anodyne decisions to tolerate lawless treatment of national “enemies” is enough. Something very close to classical fascism has reached Stage Two in a few deeply troubled societies. Its further progress is not inevitable, however. Further fascist advances toward power depend in part upon the severity of a crisis, but also very largely upon human choices, especially the choices of those holding economic, social, and political power. Determining the appropriate responses to fascist gains is not easy, since its cycle is not likely to repeat itself blindly. We stand a much better chance of responding wisely, however, if we understand how fascism succeeded in the past.
That is the end of the book. Sometimes it's useful to read a book "backwards" in order to have in mind the conclusion the author is working towards; it helps to assess the evidence s/he presents as you go back and read the book. Note here that Paxton talks about "stages of fascism". It's worth focussing on what he means and what those stages are. As far as what that would mean today, as opposed to historically, he outlines that in Chapter 7.

Hope you, and others, find this helpful.
yeh i recommended this a few days ago, very good book.
 
A long read:

Britt's widely-quoted definitions on the one hand:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
Thanks, that is very helpful. Scary to see how increasingly America is ticking off that list.

Gonna read the Eco piece now on my lunch!
 
Ta danny la rouge

I think that this:
We know from tracing its path that fascism does not require a spectacular “march” on some capital to take root; seemingly anodyne decisions to tolerate lawless treatment of national “enemies” is enough.
is a better wording of the point I have been trying to make, and which other people have been dismissive of by saying "there's no chance of fascist ideas rising now". It is certainly true that fascist ideas are not limited to those in self identifying fascist groups.

(I find that kind of writing, that you've helpfully quoted above quite hard going. It's a bit like wading through treacle. I just want them to get to the point, and explained in simpler more direct sentences (like you get in science). But that was interesting summary, and I'd be interested to read chapter 7 at least).
 
1) The fascists aren't coming, or at least we aren't going to see fascists governments in the short/medium term.
What did you mean by this fairly (as far as I could tell) unequivocal statement then?!

Am I being daft? Cos it would seem to me, from reading that, that you appear to be saying that there is no danger of a rise in fascism. I mean, given that that is what you said?
 
What the actual fuck
me said:
The fascists aren't coming, or at least we aren't going to see fascists governments in the short/medium term.
That statement does not say that there isn't an increase in support for the hard-right (personally I prefer that term over fascist but that's a separate point), let alone their "ideas". That's just an utter nonsense claim.
 
I literally do not understand

I think he is saying that he doesn't believe they will make it into government but he is not dismissing that there has been a rise in fascist/hard right ideas/support...

The question of whether fascist/hard right ideas/support have made it into existing governments feels like a separate point to me.
 
I think that's the best way to understand fascist organisation, explaining why they were so keen on things such as nationalising trade unions - smashing ideas of class solidarity was central to fascist regimes: the solidarity they approved of was solidarity with the nation, which all too easily becomes identified with loyalty to the regime, hence the authoritarianism and disdain for liberal democracy.
I suppose, ultimately, that was the key (proclaimed) ideological difference between Fascism and Nazism. In the former, the ultimate authority, to which one owed allegiance, was the State, in the latter the Volk.
(Though, as we know, this basically boiled down to semantics, as in practice the ultimate loyalty demanded was to the regime and the Order - as exemplified in the would-be messianic Leader)
 
Peron in Argentina had a strong corporatist bent, and was a big fan of Mussolini. He certainly had fascist elements to his regime, but many will argue that he wasn't a fascist.
I certainly would. He 'borrowed' from dictators down the ages (i.e. not just fascists), but he also borrowed heavily from socialist regimes, he was the Trade Unions' man, and it's a fairly odd fascist whose main policy platform and achievement was to smash the power and privileges of the traditional ruling class and economic elite, the oligarcicos (all those descended form that class will unleash a volley of curses, to this day, at the mere mention of his name).
Normally, it seems to me fascist dictators are only to keen to suck up to the tofferati.
 
The fact that I don't believe fascist governments are going to be popping up throughout the "west" doesn't mean that I don't see an increase in support for the hard right. I don't know how else to explain it.
Ok, that is more clear ta (and thanks Rutita1 x)

Here's the thing then, that I'm maybe misunderstanding or maybe we just disagree on. But I thought that it was possible for existing Governments to become fascist.

Say Trump's Republican Party. Using some of JuanTwoThree list (thanks for that, great). There's been an increase in nationalism (America First), in disdain for human rights (indiscriminate travel bans), identification of Enemies (muslims), rampant sexism, increased control and dismissal of media (fake news), obsession with national security, rampant cronyism (Jared Kuchner et al), increased religion in Government (that pic of Trump saying he answered only to God).

You get the picture.

So I guess I thought, fuck me, the US is turning into a fascist state. But what you are saying is that you either think that's very unlikely, or somehow impossible. Why?
 
Just to be clear...I think talking about the rise of Fascist/hard right ideas/support within existing governments is a conversation to be had Edie, at what point does that scenario mean it's a fascist/hard right government worthy of condemnation in those terms for example? ...I posted what I did above because I think when talking about these issues people/we are rightly cautious with generalisations.
Trump says x = fascist government etc.

I think you are asking important questions and sharing your perspective, worthy of any other poster here. That you are asking them here on urban shows a trust that people will walk the talk and have these conversations in good faith.
 
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The Estado Novo in Portugal is another example of a government that was at the very least fascistic but which did not start out in that way.
 
one thing that has always interested me about fascism is the aesthetic, in art, in poetry, in the idealising of a perfect form- of a purity and strength. As defined by obvs. I was reminded of it a while back listening to some National Action twat give it on youtube and the drawled m/c tones 'I am becoming...stronger' and it had me thinking all over again about how deep the philosophical roots must go, romans etc. Not simply that the ideal is perfect but that all else is corrupt and corrupting of the ideal.
 
The Estado Novo in Portugal is another example of a government that was at the very least fascistic but which did not start out in that way.

I don't think Franco really got it on either. His regime was more like a South American one on the wrong side of the Atlantic, which although it ticked a lot of the boxes also managed to placate Monarchists and the Church. And his power-base was very much the armed forces and the church: there weren't that many blueshirts in every town and village. Fascism has a revolutionary element; Francoism was (is) very traditionalist.
 
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