Gammon is not racist

[8ball]

And where have I denied an analysis. You seem to want the whole thing to be encapsulated in one two-syllable word. It can't be.

Rhubarb?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Whilst Saudi are in the news too.

 

[belboid]

This suggests that only white people have access to those power structures by virtue of being white. I thought you did class politics?

I have no idea where you get that suggestion from. We're not talking about individuals though,

 

[Shechemite]

I'm not at all sure how many modern NoI followers wholly agree with Elijah Mohammed's nonsense. Overwhelmingly, they are just reacting to racism, from white people.

I haven't actually offered any 'definition', by the way, so I'm not sure how they can be unhelpful.

Eh? The modern NoI has teamed up with the well known anti-racists of the Church of Scientology.

NoI are scum. Racist scum and all.

 

[belboid]

And where have I denied an analysis. You seem to want the whole thing to be encapsulated in one two-syllable word. It can't be.

This makes no sense. I'm the one insisting we need to add a power dynamic in as well, you are the one reducing racism to simple prejudice. Completely contradictory.

 

[Pickman's model]

Rhubarb?

perhaps two monosyllabic words combining to make one pungent phrase

one of them being what bernard cornwell calls the efficacious word

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This makes no sense. I'm the one insisting we need to add a power dynamic in as well, you are the one reducing racism to simple prejudice. Completely contradictory.

No I'm not. I'm saying that trying to include the reasons why people are racist into the definition of the word 'racism' both doesn't work and is massively unhelpful.

 

[Santino]

So it is possible to be prejudiced against someone because of their race and not be being racist? I really don't think that is in any way helpful.

Can women be sexist towards men in the same way as men can towards women?

That's the equivalent of the difference people are defending. Racism doesn't just mean what the etymology of the word means: in this context it's specifically about historical Western attitudes towards non-Europeans.

 

[belboid]

No I'm not. I'm saying that trying to include the reasons why people are racist into the definition of the word 'racism' both doesn't work and is massively unhelpful.

So that woman, referred to earlier, is a domestic abuser? This is your logic.

 

[A380]

perhaps two monosyllabic words combining to make one pungent phrase

one of them being what bernard cornwell calls the efficacious word

I never saw you as a Sharpe / Uthred fan...

Book by cover n that.

 

[Spymaster]

So that woman, referred to earlier, is a domestic abuser? This is your logic.

No. You're conflating the offering of violence with domestic abuse. Violence in self defence or after extreme provocation is not (necessarily) domestic abuse. But it is violence.

 

[TopCat]

Can women be sexist towards men in the same way as men can towards women?

That's the equivalent of the difference people are defending. Racism doesn't just mean what the etymology of the word means: in this context it's specifically about historical Western attitudes towards non-Europeans.

I was waiting for this one.

So say a rich woman bellitles a man who works for her, she can't be sexist?

 

[Santino]

I was waiting for this one.

So say a rich woman bellitles a man who works for her, she can't be sexist?

I was waiting for this one.

Clearly a woman can belittle a man without being sexist. 1-0 to me.

 

[Santino]

Forget about trying to work out what words mean and pay attention to what actually happens.

 

[Santino]

I was waiting for this one.

So say a rich woman bellitles a man who works for her, she can't be sexist?

If a woman tries to sexually harass a man, can she depend on a society-wide culture of oppression to help keep her out of trouble? 'Yes' or 'no' answer please.

 

[belboid]

No. You're conflating the offering of violence with domestic abuse. Violence in self defence or after extreme provocation is not (necessarily) domestic abuse. But it is violence.

And a prejudiced statement is prejudiced. But it isn’t necessarily racist.

 

[krtek a houby]

I was waiting for this one.

So say a rich woman bellitles a man who works for her, she can't be sexist?

I had that when I worked in a now defunct supermarket chain store in Tulse Hill. I don't believe she was being sexist, just being arrogant and using her position as the boss to make my working life miserable. Not saying that female to male sexism doesn't happen. It does.

 

[emanymton]

Whilst Saudi are in the news too.

But the discussion is not about Saudi Arabia it is about the UK and the UK power dynamic is the relevant one. Context matters.

I've said it before but I think it makes more sense to to talk about who can experience racism rather than who can or cannot be racist. As a white English man I really don't think I can be a victim of racism living in England. To me at least racism implies more than just being called a nasty word it includes being structural disadvantaged by the power structures in society because of a perceived race. For me being called gammon* has no more 'weight' to it than being insulted because I am fat or wear glasses, less in fact.


*It's still a shit term.

 

[Santino]

There is no history or context or structure. Just individuals doing bad things that we can easily lump together into nice neat categories.

 

[Santino]

I had that when I worked in a now defunct supermarket chain store in Tulse Hill. I don't believe she was being sexist, just being arrogant and using her position as the boss to make my working life miserable. Not saying that female to male sexism doesn't happen. It does.

Can women be sexist towards men in the same way as men can towards women? That was the actual question.

 

[Spymaster]

And a prejudiced statement is prejudiced. But it isn’t necessarily racist.

No, because there are non-racial forms of prejudice. A racist statement however, is racist.

 

[krtek a houby]

Can women be sexist towards men in the same way as men can towards women? That was the actual question.

Well, the whole gamut of male sexism towards females involves power-tripping, sexual assault, casual misogyny, commenting on how she looks/dresses etc, ganging up with fellow sexists to undermine women, incel stuff and much more that I can possibly list.

No, I don't think women can be the exact same purveyors of sexism in the way that men do. But I know variants of it happens. My example above was relatively minor. I was later bullied by a colleague for years in another job. But that wasn't sexism - just ignorance, general nastiness with a dash of racism thrown in for good measure.

Some people just get off on the whole power-trip, regardless of gender, class, race, religion etc.

 

[Spymaster]

For me being called gammon* has no more 'weight' to it than being insulted because I am fat or wear glasses, less in fact.


*It's still a shit term.

I think that's only because the term has only relatively recently been co-opted into youth-speak as a racial brickbat. If, and as, it develops in that context it'll carry more weight.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

But the discussion is not about Saudi Arabia it is about the UK and the UK power dynamic is the relevant one. Context matters.

I've said it before but I think it makes more sense to to talk about who can experience racism rather than who can or cannot be racist. As a white English man I really don't think I can be a victim of racism living in England. To me at least racism implies more than just being called a nasty word it includes being structural disadvantaged by the power structures in society because of a perceived race. For me being called gammon* has no more 'weight' to it than being insulted because I am fat or wear glasses, less in fact.


*It's still a shit term.

But there’s power dynamics beneath the state vs citizen one. We’ve moved on from grooming gangs but that’s the perfect example of a power dynamic that doesn’t fit with your analysis.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

It could equally be landlord and tenant or employer and employee.

 

[belboid]

No, because there are non-racial forms of prejudice. A racist statement however, is racist.

You denied that violence, in a domestic setting, is necessarily domestic violence (quite rightly), but somehow any prejudiced statement that involves a statement on race IS racist. Why the difference?

 

[Spymaster]

You denied that violence, in a domestic setting, is necessarily domestic violence (quite rightly), but somehow any prejudiced statement that involves a statement on race IS racist.

I don't think I did. I think a racially prejudiced statement IS racist. Not sure where you're trying to go with this.

 

[belboid]

I don't think I did. I think a racially prejudiced statement IS racist. Not sure where you're trying to go with this.

Try thinking a bit harder then. Racism isn't JUST prejudice.

Necessary and sufficient conditions and all that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Racism isn't JUST prejudice..

Correct. There are many forms of prejudice. Racism is prejudice on the basis of race.

In my head, and I reckon the heads of most people, the terms 'racial prejudice' and 'racism' are synonyms.

 

[Spymaster]

Try thinking a bit harder then. Racism isn't JUST prejudice.

Necessary and sufficient conditions and all that.

Give an example of a racially prejudiced statement that's not racist.