Gammon is not racist

[8ball]

If a woman tries to sexually harass a man, can she depend on a society-wide culture of oppression to help keep her out of trouble? 'Yes' or 'no' answer please.

Yep, insofar as men are expected to be "strong" so complaining of sexual harassment by a woman may be seen as weak.

 

[belboid]

Give an example of a racially prejudiced statement that's not racist.

Fucking Gammon

 

[belboid]

Correct. There are many forms of prejudice. Racism is prejudice on the basis of race.

In my head, and I reckon the heads of most people, the terms 'racial prejudice' and 'racism' are synonyms.

Many people probably think 'the market' and 'capitalism' are synonyms. They're not tho. For reasons stated earlier.

 

[isvicthere?]

This thread recalls a lot of 'chav' threads from c.2004 on.

Throwing in my own view, I would say 'gammon' is more a demographic than a race.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fucking Gammon

The term Spymaster has just told you he has heard from the mouths of Asian kids as a generalised derogatory term for white people?

 

[Rob Ray]

Racism
noun

1. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior

The way in which the majority of people understand racism is this line as applied solely to the act of prejudicial behaviour against someone of a different race (incidentally largely disqualifying "gammon" as it's used primarily by white liberals if Twitter is any guide). Which okay fine, meaning is what people make it, but misses a chunk of situational factors which make quite a big difference to the conversation around its use, importance and impact.

The basic secondary analysis here is that in any society where you are the disempowered minority it is not practicable to enforce prejudicial belief in any sustained way. Yes you can be a prejudiced prick, you can believe what you like, you can even in some circumstances bully people (eg. if you have an individual school with a black majority in a mostly white country) but that doesn't mean you will ever be able to make significant inroads into how the dominant majority is regarded or treated on a day-to-day basis. And it's that power which actually gives racism meaning. I've never been spat at in the street for being white and if I was it'd be such a shocking event that it'd make a page lead if the press picked up on it. It would be a racist event in popular parlance but for me, it would likely never happen again and thus is not part of any sustained social culture or politically-indulged policy that systematically attacks me.

Personally I think the argument that "you can't be racist if you're white" is a bit self-defeating because (like the use of the word "privilege" when applied to male rough sleepers) common use and understanding of the term encourages rejection of the actually quite important core of the critique. But it's not as ludicrous as some people are suggesting here.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The way in which the majority of people understand racism is this line as applied solely to the act of prejudicial behaviour against someone of a different race (incidentally largely disqualifying "gammon" as it's used primarily by white liberals if Twitter is any guide). Which okay fine, meaning is what people make it, but misses a chunk of situational factors which make quite a big difference to the conversation around its use, importance and impact.

The basic secondary analysis here is that in any society where you are the disempowered minority it is not practicable to enforce prejudicial belief in any sustained way. Yes you can be a prejudiced prick, you can believe what you like, you can even in some circumstances bully people (eg. if you have an individual school with a black majority in a mostly white country) but that doesn't mean you will ever be able to make significant inroads into how the dominant majority is regarded or treated on a day-to-day basis. And it's that power which actually gives racism meaning. I've never been spat at in the street for being white and if I was it'd be such a shocking event that it'd make a page lead if the press picked up on it. It would be a racist event in popular parlance but for me, it would likely never happen again and thus is not part of any sustained social culture or politically-indulged policy that systematically attacks me.

Personally I think the argument that "you can't be racist if you're white" is a bit self-defeating because (like the use of the word "privilege" when applied to male rough sleepers) common use and understanding of the term encourages rejection of the actually quite important core of the critique. But it's not as ludicrous as some people are suggesting here.

It's patronising as hell to try to dictate to people who can and cannot be racist. And just plain wrong-headed tbh - it doesn't work. You think Spymaster or I don't fully understand the structural analysis you're presenting here? Of course we bloody do.

 

[Rob Ray]

I think you're both doing a bit about how down-to-earth your approach to language is and how silly your opponents are rather than being particularly constructive.

 

[Spymaster]

Fucking Gammon

So calling a white person a gammon as a racial insult isn't racist?

It's based on skin colour and used as an insult. How the fuck is that not racist?

 

[lucillemara]

come on this is ridiculous

racism against white people doesn't exist and this shouldn't be controversial. our modern ideas about race and whiteness (racism) are products of european and american colonial divisions of labour. a dictionary definition of racism isn't good enough.

 

[Rob Ray]

So calling a white person a gammon as a racial insult isn't racist?

Depends on your definition of racism and what it entails in practice. The basic discrepancy in this thread is that popular and more academic definitions of "racism" are clashing.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

come on this is ridiculous

racism against white people doesn't exist and this shouldn't be controversial. our modern ideas about race and whiteness (racism) are products of european and american colonial divisions of labour. a dictionary definition of racism isn't good enough.

What about Ireland? They were under the colonial boot for long enough.

 

[lucillemara]

the racial ideology of the time did not consider irish people white

 

[Spymaster]

racism against white people doesn't exist and this shouldn't be controversial.

Wtf?

 

[Rob Ray]

Yeah and what about those Romans eh?

I'd hope we all know that "race" is in and of itself stupid nebulous hogwash, I don't think it's particularly worthwhile looking for consistency in its use here.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Correct. There are many forms of prejudice. Racism is prejudice on the basis of race.

In my head, and I reckon the heads of most people, the terms 'racial prejudice' and 'racism' are synonyms.

I suspect that you don't actually think that racism is synonymous with racial prejudice but rather you think that racial prejudice is a sufficient condition for racism. To illustrate racism without racial prejudice Terry Eagleton gives the example (iirc) of a bus driver enforcing racial segregation on his bus. This driver has no personal dislike of black people but he wants to avoid any hassle for noncompliance with the law. His compliance with the racist law is still racist though, regardless of whether he is prejudiced or not.

We can fancifully elaborate on Eagleton's example: we can imagine that the legislators who passed the racial segregation laws also have no personal animosity towards black people - they introduce the laws based on the calculation that they will create divisions in the population that will make them easier to rule over. Let us further suppose that there is no demand amongst the white population for such laws, but they nevertheless comply with them out of fear of sanction. In this admittedly far-fetched thought experiment there is no racial prejudice but there is nonetheless a system of racial apartheid in place - i.e. there is a racist society.

This example doesn't get to the heart of whether the 'power dependent' or 'power independent' account of racism is the better one, but it does suggest that how we understand the meaning of racism is closely tied to our understanding of how structures of power operate.

 

[Teaboy]

Wtf?

He made a remarkably unimpressive debut on the ID pol thread and has now brought his wisdom here for our benefit. Well, I say debut...

 

[belboid]

So calling a white person a gammon as a racial insult isn't racist?

It's based on skin colour and used as an insult. How the fuck is that not racist?

For the reasons quoted before that you choose to ignore. If you can’t get your head round that, it’s your problem not mine.

 

[Pickman's model]

the racial ideology of the time did not consider irish people white

yeh. you know you've just fucked up the point you were trying to make, don't you. nul points.

 

[Spymaster]

For the reasons quoted before that you choose to ignore. If you can’t get your head round that, it’s your problem not mine.

Nonsense. I've ignored nothing. I think you're pretending that I have because it's convenient to you though. Are you referring to that complete shit you were banging on about domestic abuse?

 

[krtek a houby]

What about Ireland? They were under the colonial boot for long enough.

Aye, not just the colonial boot but some didn't even want them commenting on "British" topics




Yeah, cross thread shit but couldn't resist it

 

[Spymaster]

Here comes the beef!

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

This place really is a parody of itself at times

 

[Pickman's model]

Here comes the beef!

the roast beef of auld england

 

[cupid_stunt]

Here comes the beef!

But, beef is not racist.

 

[krtek a houby]

Here comes the beef!

 

[ElizabethofYork]

But, beef is not racist.

How about les rosbifs?

 

[lucillemara]

yeh. you know you've just fucked up the point you were trying to make, don't you. nul points.

no, what is the problem?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

the racial ideology of the time did not consider irish people white

No true Scotsman, eh? suppose the same thing can go for Eastern Europeans today?

 

[belboid]

Nonsense. I've ignored nothing. I think you're pretending that I have because it's convenient to you though. Are you referring to that complete shit you were banging on about domestic abuse?

No, you actually responded to that. Not in a consistent manner, but you did actually respond.

You use the woolly liberal definition of racism, I don’t. That is a worthless definition, imo, totally pointless.

Why can’t we all just be nice to each other?