Gammon is not racist

[lucillemara]

i'd prefer you to back up your claims that 'we' are in some way committing genocide in yemen. but you've already refused twice to do so

MPs voting for more arms deals are still allowed to walk around in public. people seem to be more willing to mobilise to defend the racist EU than to stop mass murder. this seems like a failure to me. but if you like you like I'll stop using the pronouns.

 

[Pickman's model]

MPs voting for more arms deals are still allowed to walk around in public. people seem to be more willing to mobilise to defend the racist EU than to stop mass murder. this seems like a failure to me. but if you like you like I'll stop using the pronouns.

perhaps you could simply show that 'we' are committing - not complicit, not enabling, but actively committing - genocide in yemen. in other words i would like you to support your claim.

incidentally, mps should be forced to walk about in public. and in private too.

 

[klang]

MPs voting for more arms deals are still allowed to walk around in public. people seem to be more willing to mobilise to defend the racist EU than to stop mass murder. this seems like a failure to me. but if you like you like I'll stop using the pronouns.

again, who are those 'people'?
pls stop assuming my actions.

 

[lucillemara]

If you are a black british person you will have some connection to colonialism as well, in that case. If we in Britain enjoy a higher standard of living than we otherwise would due to colonialism, that is not something that only white people benefit from.

of course. although statistically, you are more likely to be working class and more likely to be subject to state violence. I never said only white people benefit from colonialism, I said white people exist because of colonialism.

 

[TopCat]

MPs voting for more arms deals are still allowed to walk around in public. people seem to be more willing to mobilise to defend the racist EU than to stop mass murder. this seems like a failure to me. but if you like you like I'll stop using the pronouns.

Do you take actions that help to wash the bloodstains off your hands?

 

[Pickman's model]

Do you take actions that help to wash the bloodstains off your hands?

using soap made in the third world no doubt

 

[lucillemara]

all labour relations are asymmetric

some are more asymmetric than others

 

[Jeff Robinson]

If you are a black british person you will have some connection to colonialism as well, in that case. If we in Britain enjoy a higher standard of living than we otherwise would due to colonialism, that is not something that only white people benefit from.

Black people living in Britain do benefit from some of the fruits of the colonialism but they also suffer its consequences in a whole number of ways that white people do not (windrush being the most obvious example that springs to mind).

 

[Wilf]

I don't know what way you are, but if you are a white british person you will have some connection to colonialism. the maoist/third worldist "labour aristocracy" concept is not particularly helpful but it does attempt to fill a gap in traditional leftist theory that downplays the asymmetric nature of global labour relations

Ideas about the western working class securing some 'benefits' (or defence against imisserisation) from imperialism have been around since Lenin. But arguing that those same workers become responsible for imperialism, become white supremacists is just rubbish.

 

[Pickman's model]

some are more asymmetric than others

yeh and some claims are more bullshit than others. i think this is the fifth time i've asked you to support your claim about britain committing genocide in yemen, which you seem remarkably reluctant to do.

 

[Athos]

because obscuring the origins of racism always, always leads to white people playing the victim, and in a white dominated society any challenge to white supremacy is deemed to be anti-white (this was the majority white view of MLK and the 60s US civil rights movement at the time despite liberal revisionism).

And what are the origins of racism?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Black people living in Britain do benefit from some of the fruits of the colonialism but they also suffer its consequences in a whole number of ways that white people do not (windrush being the most obvious example that springs to mind).

Again, not denying this. Merely challenging simplistic attempts to divide us up crudely into race groups with specific shared interests. Something I would have thought we would all want to do. Although it all sounds very leftist, lucillemara's analysis seems almost entirely to omit class analysis. It's all about nation states or races acting against one another.

 

[Wilf]

MPs voting for more arms deals are still allowed to walk around in public. people seem to be more willing to mobilise to defend the racist EU than to stop mass murder. this seems like a failure to me. but if you like you like I'll stop using the pronouns.

Thought you said this wasn't about guilt and moral failings?

 

[Pickman's model]

Black people living in Britain do benefit from some of the fruits of the colonialism but they also suffer its consequences in a whole number of ways that white people do not (windrush being the most obvious example that springs to mind).

there were a number of white people caught up in that too, it's not like it was a wholly black thing, predominantly yes, wholly no Immigration scandal expected to spread beyond Windrush group

 

[klang]

I said white people exist because of colonialism.

believe me, racism and ethnic separation existed long before colonialism.

 

[lucillemara]

Do you take actions that help to wash the bloodstains off your hands?

no, and I have never denied my own complicity. of course the primary villains are the profiteers and we shouldn't lose sight of that.

but anyone who wants to deny the UK's role in Saudi Arabia and complicity in the genocide is an apologist

 

[lucillemara]

believe me, racism and ethnic separation existed long before colonialism.

of course but white people didn't. race in the scientific sense didn't. this is the main point

 

[Pickman's model]

but anyone who wants to deny the UK's role in Saudi Arabia and complicity in the genocide is an apologist

you're denying it

or at least you're denying the truth of it, now you're saying the uk is involved in genocide in yemen AND saudi arabia

 

[Wilf]

Anyway, proper urban thread this: smugness, possible returner, hive mind (actually that wasn't my idea, one of my fellow drones made me post it).

 

[lucillemara]

where does saudi arabia come from? who gave mbs a red carpet welcome?

 

[klang]

but anyone who wants to deny the UK's role in Saudi Arabia and complicity in the genocide is an apologist

you are assuming peoples' complicity without knowing not only their stance but also their activities wrt Yemen.

 

[Pickman's model]

but anyone who wants to deny the UK's role in Saudi Arabia and complicity in the genocide is an apologist

please post up something - anything - which supports your claims. otherwise, after seven or eight times asking you to produce some evidence for your claim i'll have to reluctantly admit it's all a wind up

 

[klang]

where does saudi arabia come from? who gave mbs a red carpet welcome?

not me, personally.

 

[Pickman's model]

where does saudi arabia come from? who gave mbs a red carpet welcome?

who refuses to produce evidence more than mohammed bin salman? why, it's you

 

[Santino]

Anyway, proper urban thread this: smugness, possible returner, hive mind (actually that wasn't my idea, one of my fellow drones made me post it).

An interesting twist is the coalition of liberals and reactionaries clubbing together to defend a very broad, largely uninteresting definition of racism.

 

[Wilf]

no, and I have never denied my own complicity. of course the primary villains are the profiteers and we shouldn't lose sight of that.

but anyone who wants to deny the UK's role in Saudi Arabia and complicity in the genocide is an apologist

So, is it the 'UK's role' or, your earlier term couple of pages back 'the British People''?

 

[Spymaster]

My experience of 'anti-white racism' has consisted of a couple of (asian) kids who called me a honky and a meeting where I was one of the very very few non-afro-caribbean people, where I, and the other couple of white folk, were sneered at for attending. That was almost definitely not because we were 'white devils' though, it's because we were seen as useless white do-gooders. To say that both of those incidents were in any way similar to a group of white lads shouting p**i or n***er doesn't really seem very helpful, or uniting to me. Same as no one is really offended by being called a gammon, it's laughed off. Probably because there is no weight, of history, or state force, behind it.

So yesterday you were insisting that prejudice had to be bolstered by an unequal power dynamic to qualify as racism yet here you are today telling us that you have experienced anti-white racism yourself where such power dynamic was absent.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

An interesting twist is the coalition of liberals and reactionaries clubbing together to defend a very broad, largely uninteresting definition of racism.

An uninteresting non-twist is you popping up every few pages to make a snide content-free comment.

 

[Pickman's model]

our genocide in yemen is mostly ignored.

it isn't 'our genocide' you sad wretch

but anyone who wants to deny the UK's role in Saudi Arabia and complicity in the genocide is an apologist

now you've moved from

our genocide

to

complicity in the genocide

you're shuffling back from your initial claim

 

[Jeff Robinson]

So yesterday you were insisting that prejudice had to be bolstered by an unequal power dynamic to qualify as racism yet here you are today telling us that you have experienced anti-white racism yourself where such power dynamic was absent.

It's clear from the fact that he put anti-white racism in quotation marks that he did not regard it as actual racism.