Gammon is not racist

[Jeff Robinson]

So how does a school approach this subject? Two kids hurling racially charged abuse at one another in the playground are called in, and the whole class is given a talk on racism. What is said? Now then children, this white child calling a black child nasty names because they are black is being racist, but this black child calling a white child nasty names because they are white isn't being racist, merely prejudiced by race, because there is an unequal power dynamic, from which arose our racial categories in the first place, meaning that only the white child can be racist in this situation. Now run along children, and be nice to each other, but remember you can be racist, while you cannot...

Doesn't work. The attempt to be sophisticated results in the reverse of its intention - in confusion and simplistic nonsensical contradictions.

It's easy LBJ - the teacher says something like 'racial slurs and bullying will not be tolerated in this school, if it continues I will speak to your parents'. However, there's no reason why we should base our political analyses of racism on how a teacher chooses to reprimand children.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's easy LBJ - the teacher says something like 'racial slurs and bullying will not be tolerated in this school, if it continues I will speak to your parents'. However, there's no reason why we should base our political analyses of racism on how a teacher chooses to reprimand children.

There is a very good reason why we should be guided in our definition of the word racism (that's what we're talking about here, remember) by how we wish to teach children. That does not preclude further political analysis.

 

[Wilf]

It's entering into dangerous territory to say that the racism of white people is different from the racism of high caste people in India, or of Han Chinese to minority groups in China, or of Finns to ethnic Lapps and so on. It's fudging to say that it's only when whiteness is temporarily redefined that it happens, though that clearly does happen eg in the case of 'white n......s'.

The racism of white people may be worse than than that of others, it's probably more widespread and has probably had more intellectual underpinnings over the years. But to say that it's somehow not another construct to reflect an essentially capitalist structure in origin would only leave only levels of melanin being the reason. Which would be odd.

Dangerous territory yes, though there may be a way of saying non-white racism might operate in different circumstances, different contexts and all that - but is still racism. What is weird stuff, probably trolling, is this 'colonialism made you/us all white supremacists - and whites can't be the subject of racism' line.

 

[8ball]

It's entering into dangerous territory to say that the racism of white people is different from the racism of high caste people in India, or of Han Chinese to non-Han, or of Finns to ethnic Lapps and so on.

It's a pretty ethnocentric view. Only one race is capable of the One True Racism.

 

[klang]

the royal wee

although the Royal We weren't exactly the pinnacle of Glaswegian music, they certainly weren't hated by everybody

 

[Wilf]

It's a pretty ethnocentric view. Only one race is capable of the One True Racism.

One racism to rule them all...

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Viz may have an opening for you. They are always on the lookout for new characters.

 

[lucillemara]

anti-racism

 

[Jeff Robinson]

There is a very good reason why we should be guided in our definition of the word racism (that's what we're talking about here, remember) by how we wish to teach children. That does not preclude further political analysis.

I would wish to teach children to understand that there is a world of difference between racial slurs by white people towards black people than vice versa.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I would wish to teach children to understand that there is a world of difference between racial slurs by white people towards black people than vice versa.

Which children? In a school where white kids are in the minority would you still do this?

One of the things you need to bear in mind when talking about power dynamics is, as madeinbedlam said, that there is more than one process in play here.

 

[Wilf]

I'm magically separate from the empire that created me! I'm one of the good ones! nothing I consume comes from stolen labour!

My guess is you are trolling, but still, a question: if you believe 'we'/'us'/Brits/westerners are white supremacists, what is the basis for any kind of class politics, any kind of solidarity? In your conceptual universe the only way out seem to be a religious denunciation of the racist sins of your past life, your inherited guilt. Doesn't seem to have much to do with building an active resistance to capital based on shared interests.

 

[klang]

no wonder everyone hates us

seriously though, what do you mean by 'everybody' and 'us'? esp in the context of Yemen?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Which children? In a school where white kids are in the minority would you still do this?

One of the things you need to bear in mind when talking about power dynamics is, as madeinbedlam said, that there is more than one process in play here.

No one denies the latter, but I reject your implication that we can extract from pedagogical techniques tailored to very specific contexts an answer to the more general question of how we ought to theorise racism.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No one denies the latter, but I reject your implication that we can extract from pedagogical techniques tailored to very specific contexts an answer to the more general question of how we ought to theorise racism.

I'm not saying you shouldn't theorise about racism ffs. read what I write. That doesn't mean you have to define the word racism to include all your theories about why and how it exists. You try to do so and you just end up in a mess. This mess, whereby people can make racist comments then proclaim that they are not being racist. This mess, that even a small child would see is rather bonkers.

 

[lucillemara]

My guess is you are trolling, but still, a question: if you believe 'we'/'us'/Brits/westerners are white supremacists, what is the basis for any kind of class politics, any kind of solidarity? In your conceptual universe the only way out seem to be a religious denunciation of the racist sins of your past life, your inherited guilt. Doesn't seem to have much to do with building an active resistance to capital based on shared interests.

no need for guilt or self hatred, just an acknowledgement of where you come from and why you are the way you are. a better starting point for solidarity than a race blind approach, which under white supremacy tends to just reproduce it. solidarity between white and non-white antifascists, black lives matter activists, indigenous land defenders, Gaza protesters etc., though much room for improvement, doesn't seem to be damaged by a shared acceptance of the reality of white supremacy. without that it's unlikely that these alliances would be happening at all.

 

[belboid]

It was going pretty well until belboid started throwing personal abuse about. Again.

says the man desperate to get into personal spats. A tad hypocritical. Again.

Some forms of racism are more hurtful than others. Again, hoodathunk?

Aside from anything else, I think your (re)definition is politically useless. Worse than that, it's politically divisive. What gain is there in downplaying racist attitudes like that?

Do you really not see the contradiction in this post? You acknowledge that two pieces of abuse are of a quite different level, but you want to make the people throwing the abuse equivalent. And you think that doing so isn't divisive? That doesn't really make much sense, does it?

My experience of 'anti-white racism' has consisted of a couple of (asian) kids who called me a honky and a meeting where I was one of the very very few non-afro-caribbean people, where I, and the other couple of white folk, were sneered at for attending. That was almost definitely not because we were 'white devils' though, it's because we were seen as useless white do-gooders. To say that both of those incidents were in any way similar to a group of white lads shouting p**i or n***er doesn't really seem very helpful, or uniting to me. Same as no one is really offended by being called a gammon, it's laughed off. Probably because there is no weight, of history, or state force, behind it.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

just an acknowledgement of where you come from and why you are the way you are.

Could you expand on this? Why am I the way I am?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I'm not saying you shouldn't theorise about racism ffs. read what I write. That doesn't mean you have to define the word racism to include all your theories about why and how it exists. You try to do so and you just end up in a mess.

I didn't say you said we 'shouldn't theorise about racism' I said that your example of how a school teacher should act in a particular context isn't generalisable to a critique of the 'prejudice + power' thesis. There's a difference between a theory of social phenomena and how this theory is brought to bare in our dealings with each other. Its therefore not instructive to use examples such as the one you did to discredit a theory.

 

[lucillemara]

seriously though, what do you mean by 'everybody' and 'us'? esp in the context of Yemen?

would you prefer me to say the british state? parliament? the arms industry? it's just shorthand for all of those things, and an acknowledgement that we are not separate from this system, though without capital our influence is limited

 

[Pickman's model]

would you prefer me to say the british state? parliament? the arms industry? it's just shorthand for all of those things, and an acknowledgement that we are not separate from this system, though without capital our influence is limited

i'd prefer you to back up your claims that 'we' are in some way committing genocide in yemen. but you've already refused twice to do so

 

[DotCommunist]

are the people the state and the state the people now then? Where have I heard such talk before

 

[klang]

would you prefer me to say the british state? parliament? the arms industry?

yes, would prefer that.

we are not separate from this system

by 'we', do you mean you, as in yourself? how do you know what my part in Yemen is?

now, who's 'everybody'?

 

[Pickman's model]

are the people the state and the state the people now then? Where have I heard such talk before

ein volk, ein reich?

 

[klang]

are the people the state and the state the people now then? Where have I heard such talk before

 

[lucillemara]

Could you expand on this? Why am I the way I am?

I don't know what way you are, but if you are a white british person you will have some connection to colonialism. the maoist/third worldist "labour aristocracy" concept is not particularly helpful but it does attempt to fill a gap in traditional leftist theory that downplays the asymmetric nature of global labour relations

 

[lucillemara]

ein volk, ein reich?

anti-whiteness is a real issue and I'm the fascist?

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't know what way you are, but if you are a white british person you will have some connection to colonialism. the maoist/third worldist "labour aristocracy" concept is not particularly helpful but it does attempt to fill a gap in traditional leftist theory that downplays the asymmetric nature of global labour relations

all labour relations are asymmetric

 

[Pickman's model]

anti-whiteness is a real issue and I'm the fascist?

what are you blathering on about now?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't know what way you are, but if you are a white british person you will have some connection to colonialism. the maoist/third worldist "labour aristocracy" concept is not particularly helpful but it does attempt to fill a gap in traditional leftist theory that downplays the asymmetric nature of global labour relations

If you are a black british person you will have some connection to colonialism as well, in that case. If we in Britain enjoy a higher standard of living than we otherwise would due to colonialism, that is not something that only white people benefit from.

 

[klang]

anti-whiteness is a real issue and I'm the fascist?

the only one here banging on about that is you.