Gammon is not racist

[Athos]

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lucillemara perhaps you could outline how, against the evidence presented to the court, the murder of richard everitt was not racist?

They've effectively already done that. Essentially, that it can't be racist because the perpetrators didn't have race-based structural power as compared to the victim.

 

[SpineyNorman]

it's not an argument
where does our contemporary understanding of race come from?

Different strokes?

 

[Shechemite]

What about situations where a black person does have power.

lucillemara has made comments elsewhere about the ‘Macho-left’ being beastly towards those with mental illness.

Does black MH nurses racially abusing white MH patients (on the basis of their ‘whiteness’) count as racism according to the ‘power plus prejudice’ definition?

 

[ElizabethofYork]

no and this obsession with brutality against white people is unseemly and a common theme in fascist discourse

I've also never been a student except for 6th form college so I don't know why that keeps coming up

Is that where you studied American history?

 

[Pickman's model]

Obsession for (white) men

 

[Gromit]

What about situations where a black person does have power.

lucillemara has made comments elsewhere about the ‘Macho-left’ being beastly towards those with mental illness.

Does black MH nurses racially abusing white MH patients (on the basis of their ‘whiteness’) count as racism according to the ‘power plus prejudice’ definition?

Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

The key word people seem to be missing is 'belief'. It doesn't matter if the belief is true or not, they merely have to hold the belief.

Poor unemployed rednecks in America thinking they are superior to Japanese citizens with well paid tech jobs doesn't means it's not racism just because the Japaneese worker actually has the power.

 

[editor]

anyway fuck white people, kill them all. ban me you cunts.

Are you incapable of just leaving? No will power? Need an authority figure to do your bidding for you?

 

[Athos]

Are you incapable of just leaving? No will power? Need an authority figure to do your bidding for you?

Who is it?

 

[Wilf]

when I tried to link whiteness to colonialism people mocked me for it precisely because I was not using a linear or static definition of race - of course Irish people have always been white and therefore anti-Irish racism is an example of racism against white people!!! etc. that evidence is in the thread. people are equivocating between "racism against white people" as racism against anyone they would consider white and "racism against white people" as racism people experience for being white (far right talking point) - and insisting an an ahistorical presentist and idealist notion of race to make that work

would anti-irish racism exist without colonial violence? have black and asian people colonised britain?

Thing is though, I'm sure pretty much everyone on here knows the debate about whether race is connected to colonialism, whether 'privileged groups' can be subject to racism (and will have very different positions on it). But in the gammon thing its a situation where the definition of racism isn't really the issue. It was a mildly amusing idea when first used - the image of the 6 blokes in the question time audience - but then starts to look a bit dodgy the more it is used. Its imprecise, as this thread has shown: is it about attitudes, is it about a loss of certainties for a certain age group, is it about class? Similarly, has it gained traction post brexit? I like the point that was made earlier about it being used (problematically) by liberal, young activists.

The bit about whether gammon 'is racist' is up for debate - probably not much debate as gammon is a shit term anyway. But whether it is racism or racial prejudice to me isn't that important. The debate is/should be simply whether it has a particular ethnic/gendered group in mind - white men. It's about whether it has an ethnic target - but that gets lost if the whole thing has to meet a theory test in terms of colonialism. In other words, the issue of whether there is a 'left behind', middle aged group of shouty men get's lost and the whole things becomes an inter-left/liberal spat.

 

[TopCat]

I know. Did you lot go to lefty Sunday school to get indoctrinated with this shit?

I recollect Linda Bellos asserting the same 35 years ago and graspers like Lee Jasper chuck the concept about as a shield to deflect accusations that he is a racist cunt.

 

[Wilf]

yeah and marx raped his maid, so what

FFS, to think I've just tried to make a sensible response to you. Feel dirty now.

 

[Pickman's model]

FFS, to think I've just tried to make a sensible response to you. Feel dirty now.

mind bleach help?

 

[TopCat]

mind bleach help?

When you have finished with it pass it over...

 

[imposs1904]

Different strokes?

What you talking about, Spiney?

 

[Wilf]

When you have finished with it pass it over...

I get it on prescription and sell it on to the young 'uns.

 

[andysays]

only if the victim's relationship whiteness is ambiguous and conditional, eg. irish, italians, ashkenazi jews, slavs, specific types of racism not just anti-white



the beneficiaries of colonial violence need to separate themselves from their victims and a good way to do that is by asserting their natural superiority in racial terms, the pseudoscience of race describes why certain classes are inherently suited to certain types of labour and deserving or not of violence. this goes back to aristotle but in modern terms European colonialism, slavery and genocide the most important factors.

Are all 'white' people beneficiaries of colonial violence? If so, are they all equal beneficiaries?

Are no 'non-white' people beneficiaries of colonial violence?

Are all 'non-white' people victims of colonial violence, and if so are they all equally victims?

I ask all this because your statements and characterisations seem to me a little simplistic

 

[lucillemara]

of course they are, I'm not writing a thesis. no to your questions. but without colonial violence there would be no white people.

 

[Spymaster]

 

[Wilf]

of course they are, I'm not writing a thesis. no to your questions. but without colonial violence there would be no white people.

What's the point of just repeating these formulas?

 

[lucillemara]

View attachment 150507
lucillemara perhaps you could outline how, against the evidence presented to the court, the murder of richard everitt was not racist?

britain is white supremacist and it's bizarre to see putative leftists using its legal system as an authority on racial violence

 

[lucillemara]

What's the point of just repeating these formulas?

because people claim they don't get it and keep asking me to clarify. because I think the abstract view of racism that seems to be the majority view here is actually dangerous and reactionary and should always be challenged.

 

[Wilf]

britain is white supremacist and it's bizarre to see putative leftists using its legal system as an authority on racial violence

Here, have 50 Troll Points.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

britain is white supremacist

Can you unpack that statement for us?

 

[Spymaster]

Jesus.

 

[Pickman's model]

britain is white supremacist and it's bizarre to see putative leftists using its legal system as an authority on racial violence

did you know that karl marx made great use of british government documents as authorities when he was writing capital?

 

[Pickman's model]

Can you unpack that statement for us?

he couldn't unpack groceries.

 

[Pickman's model]

because people claim they don't get it and keep asking me to clarify. because I think

no you don't

 

[Wilf]

britain is white supremacist and it's bizarre to see putative leftists using its legal system as an authority on racial violence

Viz may have an opening for you. They are always on the lookout for new characters.

 

[Athos]

britain is white supremacist and it's bizarre to see putative leftists using its legal system as an authority on racial violence

Even if that were true, it's not obvious how that links to your central point? And you've not replied to my question about the political utility of the conception of racism you've chosen.

 

[danny la rouge]

of course they are, I'm not writing a thesis. no to your questions. but without colonial violence there would be no white people.

Without racism there would be no white people and black people.